Chris (00:00)
Welcome to No Man's An Island, a podcast powered by Men's Therapy Hub, a directory of male therapists for male clients. And we are back. It is season two and Jet is here today. Hey Jet.
Jett Stone (00:10)
How's it going, Chris? Good to be back. Season two. Let's do this.
Chris (00:12)
Yes, yes, I'm
excited, a little trepidatious. There's some interesting stuff for us to talk about, including the launch of a new website, which we are gonna get to, and also launching men's therapy in the US. But before we get to that, I think it's fair to say that Jet and I are both going through something at the moment which has been bringing this conversation to our minds. And I'm gonna first of all start by telling a little anecdote from a mental health workshop that I was delivering recently, which is
really got my the cogs in my brain whirring and and I haven't really stopped thinking about it since because that's how my brain works, unfortunately. so I was delivering one of my men's mental health workshops at the British Museum. And ordinarily the workshops that I deliver are male only. So what I usually do is like a male only session in the morning and then in the in the afternoon I'll do like a mixed gender session if the organization wants it. and obviously men can come to the mixed gender one or the the the the the male only one. That's fine. But
Because this was some kind of it was like suicide prevention week or something like that. I can't remember now. I should know that. and they actually request, well, this time, can we just have it mixed gender from the beginning? And this is an organization I've worked with before. So I said, yeah, fine. So there was about 30 men in the room and four or five women. And part of the reason why I don't want a lot of women in the room when we're doing this stuff is because.
First of all, men find it more difficult to open up in that space, but also because my experience is that women are a bit more knowledgeable on this stuff. And so, as can happen, one or two women are answering a lot of the questions very early on. And I'm thinking to myself, like, shit, like this is exactly why I don't want you here. And then after about four or five of these occasions, this woman put her hand up and we were in the middle of a conversation about being a provider.
And I talk about the the the concept of being a provider of being like one of the biggest stresses that a lot of men carry. and I can get onto some of the thinking and the research behind why later. But this woman, the same woman who'd answered multiple questions, she put her hand up and she said, I just don't think that's true. She said, quote, I don't think men these days feel the pressure to be a provider.
And this was one of those like glorious moments for me as a facilitator because I don't have to answer that question. I turned to the 30 men in the room and I said, lads, do you? And to a man, every single one of them said yes. Every single one. Now, her reasoning was, and I understand this, her reasoning was that we are living in an age where.
Like
the gender pay gap is diminishing. It's still not zero, but like eighty percent of the gender pay gap in the UK at least is down to the pregnancy penalty. So because women stay home and their care to look after the kids and their careers don't progress as quickly. sixteen to twenty-five year old women now earn more than sixteen to twenty-five year old men in the UK. And we've talked about this before.
And so I understood from like a a kind of grander sociological perspective why she might think that. But this is where I want to bring you in, Jet, because to me, there's something bigger than just like what is happening in the economy right now. There is something much bigger happening in the minds of men to say, well, no, I feel this monumental pressure as a man to be the provider.
you know, like I earn, therefore I am kind of thing.
Jett Stone (03:49)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (03:50)
And so I'm really interested in kind of diving into that because I I sensed that in a lot of my clients too, in a in in challenging economic times, where do they get their worth from? And their worth still comes from being a provider. And I guess just as a an addendum to that, I want to add that it would be really good, I think, later in this conversation to talk about how we might
develop the concept of being a provider to not just being a financial provider. But this is one of and this is another one of those episodes where I go, There's a little rant chat and I'm gonna throw you the ball.
Jett Stone (04:27)
Yeah, I mean I I really enjoy this conversation, this topic, because it's hidden throughout all types of conversations we have when it comes to couples and division of labor within households and just generally men's mental health, like this provider and protector. But today we'll talk more about the provider, although they're linked, the provider and the protector, providing can provide protection. But
You know, that comment that came at the British Museum during your workshop is something I've seen in my own clinical practice in the own my own in the workshops that I do. And I just want to start with just one st a couple stats before we go into the more of the psychological stuff, just to bolster that provider anxiety is alive, all too alive, even though the economics have shift shifted between men and women. So this is from 2025, and this is an Equimundo report, which is
a large nonprofit organization in the US, and they do this state of the American men every year. And it usually maps on to the the rest of the Western world to some degree. So 86% of men and 77% of women still link manhood to being provider. 41% of Americans say income provision is one of a father's most important roles, versus only 25% for mothers. That's from 2025. And so the 2026 report came out like hot off the press and
Again, this similar number, 69% of young men say they constantly worry about their own and their family's financial future. And 40% worry about losing their job. You know, and it could go on and on. And this is not to say that women don't have provider and financial anxiety. my gosh, they do. But the conversation today, I think, is going to be good because like what sets apart the provider, the
weight that men feel. Is it nature, is it nurture? It's of course it's always some combination of both. But what we can speak to with more authority here as therapist, I think, is the socialization component.
Chris (06:37)
Yes.
Jett Stone (06:39)
and I'll I'll just pause there before, you know, I could I we could dive in a little bit. Maybe I'll say a bit more because you said I I earn, therefore I am. And so that cues me up because a few years ago I I I wrote something for psychology today called
The existential load. I'm just look, I'm just looking for a name to describe. Like what is the weight that men uniquely, and a lot of times uniquely, carry. And it's this distress that we have. It's like a chronic vigilance system that we carry about financial provision, and it fuses, as you suggested, with our identity. I earn, therefore I am. And earn isn't always money, right? I have to
Chris (07:20)
Mm.
Jett Stone (07:20)
prove something in order to be loved.
It's a radar and and in a lot of dads I see my practice look at it's constantly scanning for threats. And you know, it could be late night budget checking, it could be comparing yourself constantly or answering sl you know, emails or slack it, you know, late into the night. And it's it's an impossible math, meaning that it doesn't really fit the logic of math sometimes. You can do all your accounting for your family and yourself, but it's are we safe?
And in this report from Equamundo in 2026, it's like they did qualitative interviews, and it's like this sense of I have nobody to fall back on. And
Chris (08:02)
Yes, yes.
Jett Stone (08:04)
whether that's true or not, sometimes whether it's rooted in reality or not, almost doesn't matter. It's about being enough. It's about mattering. It's like deserving love being tied directly to your ability to provide. And that's where we come in as therapists.
Is that this doesn't, and I'll say one more thing and then I then I'll pause for a minute, just
Chris (08:27)
I love this.
Jett Stone (08:28)
just to process it, because it doesn't really dis this doesn't discriminate by socioeconomic status. You have very high earners, right? let's say on Wall Street or, you know, corporate lawyers, they're overworking, right? And they're sometimes 70, 80 hours a week. And they're in this corporate rat race and there's lifestyle creep, right? The more you earn, the more you buy, and then the more you have to keep earning.
Chris (08:49)
Hedonic
treadmill.
Jett Stone (08:50)
That's right. And so and so they have to step back if they're sometimes as their fathers. And that oftentimes falls on a partner or a woman, a family member. And so it doesn't disappear though when you've stepped back from that rat race, meaning that I work with full-time dads who have that same existential load. It just transforms into existential irrelevance, meaning that I'm not carrying the load I'm supposed to be carrying. I'm falling short of all that.
I was told I had to be in order to be enough. So it it's it doesn't discriminate oftentimes based on your socioeconomic status. And I won't we'll talk more about like its origins in in boyhood, but that's my that's my dump of information on you.
Chris (09:39)
Yeah, and it it's it's great. That's why I love throwing you the ball like that to to start it off because now I've got like six different strands I could pull
Jett Stone (09:45)
Yeah.
Chris (09:45)
on from that. I think I I I just want to talk because you you've talked about boyhood. one of the things that I used to ask in my masculinity workshop when I used to work in schools, I don't know if my colleagues still ask this question, they probably don't. It was one of my one of my like researchy type questions was to the boys in the room, put your hand up.
If you would be willing to grow up and and and get into a relationship with a woman if you are that way inclined who earns more money than you. And at 14, 15 years old, 90% of the boys said no. They they they had to be the primary owner. And I think at like 14.
How much messaging is has that come from, or how much is that is in innate? And with these things, we'll never know the difference. And I would love to talk more. You know, you you kind of suggested it there. Because actually, when I asked the same question of the adult men in my men's mental health workshops, 90% of the men said it would be fucking awesome to have a super rich wife and they didn't have to work, you know? And and and we kind of laugh about it. Because again,
To me, there is this opportunity here, but we don't seem to be taking it. And I'm wondering if perhaps I'm simplifying it too much, which is not something I would usually do. if I'm simplifying it too much by saying like we have an opportunity to free ourselves. Is this one of those things where sure, okay, we might free ourselves, but this is about undoing generations worth of programming that, you know, from feudalism all the way through to capitalism and beyond?
It has been about man provider, financial stability, protector is part of the provider, as you say, because of that. And is and is that going to be n nearly impossible to completely subvert?
Jett Stone (11:44)
Yeah. I'm pretty cynical about subverting it. I mean, you see it, even within the men's health, the the the big umbrella of it, you have a sect of it who are saying, No, absolutely, provider is an important part of masculinity and and being a man. Like you you see it, like there's there's influencers, there's people who are like, No, no, no, like you are not really a man if you're not providing financially for your family. and you could I think
So it's it's alive and well on online. And I I think that this is very difficult to undo. I think there are some men who are totally stepping into providing outside of financial, right? Whet w whether it's caregiving or something else. Like men are stepping into fatherhood in ways they never did before.
Chris (12:33)
Yes.
Jett Stone (12:34)
I just think that it's good to talk about like the the developmental seeds of it. Like you said 14 years old, 15 years old, even like
12-year-old boys, what what do they see in their father who's doing well perhaps or not doing well? They're seeing a version of themselves who was going to who are going to potentially have to carry, fix, or perform. The way that mothers and fathers talk to their boys oftentimes is different. that it's it's much more, it can be much more built around like
being like needed versus known. Boys are, you know, if they they come home and they're on a team, they're athletic, and that's how they feel that they can earn their stripes, they can earn their worth and love is through some
Chris (13:30)
Mm.
Jett Stone (13:31)
type of, you know, performance or goal or achieving. And I think that that is just built in through the questions we ask of our kids, through
our own sense of through watching our parents. And so it's about competency too, like caring, fixing, performing. And that that's like
Just such an inc incredibly it's it's so built into our childhood. It's like hard to not do, even if you're a dad like I am, who you know I don't have sons, I have two daughters. But you can consciously try to send different messages to your kids. yet at the same time, like you know, you you show more affection after one thing versus another. You know, that like you sometimes you can't help but play into that stereotype of what you
Chris (14:28)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (14:28)
expect it.
Son daughter to do. And so by the time a kid becomes an adult, it's the only like relational currency that he can trust, meaning that like is it even possible to be loved without having to earn it? You know, that like it's been so inculcated into them that it's like.
Chris (14:46)
Yeah. Some that
that makes something deep inside me wilt.
That's so
Jett Stone (14:54)
Tell me about that.
Chris (14:55)
that's so sad. Because actually that is what I see with a lot of adult men. Is it goes back to I earn, therefore I am, and I talk to them about, well, actually, you know, how much praise did you get as a child just for being a child, you know? Or was everything in your life about standards?
And those those men who grew up in households where everything was about hitting the right standards, I guess it doesn't matter how much they earn. They will never feel like they are earning enough. They are they will never feel like they are providing enough. And they never feel this sense of being enough like internally. And that's hard. That's hard
Jett Stone (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (15:40)
to s like that's one of those things that like as a therapist.
It obviously, like, we're we're not immune to the experiences of our clients. Like some stuff is heavy to sit with as a therapist. And to me, perhaps it says something about my own childhood. Perhaps I should take this
Jett Stone (15:56)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (15:56)
to supervision, you know. I wonder if there's something in that because, you know, I grew up in a household with one brother who went to Oxford, another brother who is like now captain of industry, and I'm just like kind of making life up as I go along and then you know, retraining six times and now I'm a therapist. And and like, you know.
I've finally the reason that this conversation comes up is like I've finally been able to scrape enough money together to buy a house and I'm nearly 40, which is, you know, part of the deal of our generation. And yet with that comes a sense of achievement, but on the other side of it comes a sense of foreboding. And it's like this treadmill that we get on as well. It it it's it's all so much for a for for a man to think about when deep inside.
There is this part of him that says, It all is on you to be
Jett Stone (16:48)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (16:48)
the person in your family. Like it's not all on me and my family. I know it's not all on you and your family, but that
Jett Stone (16:53)
Right. Right.
Chris (16:55)
doesn't mean that we don't feel it. That that that we have to be the one that everybody else can crumble and fall and we are not allowed to. Cause I think that's part of the provider thing as well. It's providing absolute security and safety, which isn't possible because
Jett Stone (17:10)
Yes, is impossible. Yeah.
Chris (17:12)
Because no such thing exists.
Jett Stone (17:13)
Yes. And a lot of the message to to a lot of boys and young men is like suck it up because the cavalry isn't coming for you. And
Chris (17:22)
Right. Right.
Jett Stone (17:24)
you know, I I I don't think we take that messaging as seriously as we should to young men and and boys. That girls get messaging that they absorb about their bodies.
Right. And and we can trace it back to early childhood to comments, images, like comparisons, and it's that all takes root long before you know they become women. And I think in a much different way, but it's worth comparing, is that boys absorb an equally early message that again, I'm gonna repeat myself, your worth is measured by what you pr produce and and protect and
We don't have as much vocabulary for it. And I think that we just
It's very hard to undo because it's so repetitive throughout your childhood. I mean, I rem I remember finishing college and then like every single question I would get is, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? What are you gonna
Chris (18:31)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (18:32)
do? I got the same question when I my family moved from the US temporarily to France for a couple of years and I'm I'm on the way back to the US now.
But the question from and it was for my wife's work. and the question I got like was, my gosh, what are you gonna do? and when you look at a lot of ex pet families, that question isn't asked to a mom. That
Chris (19:00)
Right.
Jett Stone (19:00)
is if the father is moving for his his company. So
Chris (19:03)
Which is ninety
five percent of the time what is happening is that th they are they are moving to support the man's career.
Jett Stone (19:06)
Right.
Right. And so in this case, I moved to support my wife's career and I got that question and it triggered that existential load for me. Like, shit. Am I like like like I I mean I have I had a a plan. I
Chris (19:22)
I thought I was doing all right.
Jett Stone (19:23)
I thought I was doing all right, exactly. and so it's not just from within, it's not just intrapsychic, it's interpersonal, meaning that like in the conversations you have, people are curious about like
How you gonna carry this load? How you gonna drive this bus for your family? I'm like, what do you mean? We're we're both driving it. But I don't that's that's not the feedback I get from the external world.
Chris (19:49)
Well no, and and actually t to to talk about that, like Cena, my wife has noticed she's passed a driving test recently because I've demanded that I don't have to drive everywhere all the fucking time, right? But she started to notice, like, on a on a very v basic literal sense, it is men who are doing the driving of the vehicles when you see a couple in the car. And I thought about that. And I thought that that is a a great example of where when I grew up, and both my grandm my grandmothers
My grandma's had driving licenses. I never once saw them drive. My mum, however, she would drive all the time. Because I but she would but if if mum and dad were both in the car together, she would never drive. And that's the sort of messaging as well, because that is the I am the provider of the road safety or whatever. It's
Jett Stone (20:41)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (20:42)
it's I don't know. It's such a strange thing, just because you said driving the bus, like it's it's so much like.
I wonder if they ever even thought about that. You know? I wonder if they ever even considered what message that sent to the three boys. Or maybe that is the message that they wanted to send to their three boys. You know,
as
Jett Stone (21:01)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (21:01)
the man, it is your responsibility to take charge.
And that existential load, that's why I love hearing you talk about it. Like it's so small, like seemingly small, I should say, but it can be like the death by a thousand cuts.
Jett Stone (21:19)
Yes.
Chris (21:19)
Because it's if it's every tiny little thing like that, it's it's where I guess women will say for them it's the mental load, you know? It's the I have to think about who's who's a who's a choir practice, who's playing
Who's who's got swimming, who's got this thing, doing the organizing, you know, the kind of logistical stuff, which traditionally has been the woman's job in the family.
Jett Stone (21:44)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (21:45)
But we don't but again as men, we don't hear the conversation on the other side. And I'm actually pushing back against it at the moment and saying, like, we hear so much, you know, feminism has done a really, really good job at freeing women from the old constraints. We have not had a similar kind of liberation movement.
To tell young boys, you don't have to be the one that drives the car every time. You don't have to be the one that goes out and becomes the captain of industry and earns a shitload of money. Like you can be a a midwife, even if you want. I say that because I heard the other day that about a friend who had a male midwife turn up and didn't know what to do with that information, which is a conversation for a different time, you know, to to encourage boys into the heel subjects, which are inherently
less lucrative, but actually the freedom in that as a human to say, actually I can make that choice because there are women out there who are earning as much, if not more, than me. And isn't that wonderful? But we're not giving that message to boys.
Jett Stone (22:50)
No, and it's always a question of mine of like how we can create a culture where it doesn't feel like that is a man's job to you know, you you always have to drive the bus. And I'm kind of interrogating myself a little because I I also have that desire to want to be at the wheel and drive, right? And I actually take pride in it.
Chris (23:11)
Yes, me too. Figuratively and literally.
Jett Stone (23:15)
I take pride in it. And so when I when my wife is
you know, critiquing my driving, which is to put it nicely, right? And I think I'm a pretty good driver just for just for the record, right? yes.
Chris (23:28)
Every man does.
Jett Stone (23:30)
that it it hits deeper than just like y you're not doing a good job. It's like you're not competent. You're not keeping us safe. And I I take a lot of pride still, you know, as someone who's interrogated this endlessly about keeping my family.
safe and secure and I trust myself behind the wheel. I feel like I'm providing a s service. and I have a good record of it. And and I think it just it's it hits in a way that when she when my wife is driving and I say something to her, I don't I don't feel like she's as defensive about it as I am. And I think what she she's targeting in me and she doesn't necessarily always know it is that sense of like
of the expectations that I have of myself that I feel like others have of me. And, you know, part of what keeps this going too is
There's a there's a number of of of things that I that I've kind of thought about is the it keeps at bay, this b driving the bus, let's call it, keeps at bay the vulnerability of needing or of being taken care of, or of being the passenger in this metaphor. That receiving care for a lot of men can sometimes be an emasculation or humiliation or like some type of infantilizing,
Chris (24:59)
Absolutely.
Jett Stone (25:00)
right?
Because it's it activates something maybe earlier in our life that wasn't necessarily met. it's not like we don't we we do want to be taken care of. but we kind of split that off as we get older. It becomes like intolerable
Chris (25:20)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (25:21)
to think that my gosh, we're we're needy creatures. and so part of
What can undo this, I think, is like helping men's tolerate, like that's awesome that your wife drives, or that she's the breadwinner, or that you know, you can take a step back from being a provider. Like being a normalizing that not at the individual individual level, but also the institutional level and the social at the social level of things. Like, I've never heard in all the spaces that I've occupied, like a man say, you know what?
I think I'm gonna take some a step back from my job. I just kind of wanna take more time to, you know, take care of the kids and like, you know, go fishing or tennis or whatever, right. It's
Chris (26:06)
Go fishing. Yeah. Yeah.
Jett Stone (26:10)
like they may have that thought, but they have to quickly quickly squash it in their head, like, my gosh, that sounds so needy independent and maybe even weak. it's never like, you know, let's do the arrangement where you work and I'll kind of take it.
take a step back and and take on the full and it's not really a step back, but it's like taking on a whole caregiving role or something else. Like it feels like, no, I have to have some other reason why that's happening. I'm
Chris (26:37)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (26:38)
I'm cooking in another way, right? I'm gonna start a business or like there it that's what gets the focus. It's not okay to just take a step back from being a provider. You have to quietly be doing the providing on the side, at least when
you're talking to others.
Chris (26:52)
Yeah. It it's interesting for me because again, there's so many different threads I could pull on. I mean, one thing I've just thought about here is that for a while I've had this thought about getting a friend of mine called Gordon, who's just turned 70, on the podcast because he saw his old man, his his dad, like wither and deteriorate in front of him and he's getting on in years. And I I kind of want to talk up to him because we've had conversations together about how it feels as a man to
Have been, as he has, very kind of you know, he he's he's always worked with his hands, he's always provided for everybody. But he he recognized 10, 15 years from now, he is going to need support. There's a good chance at some point, like me or my friends are gonna be wiping his ass or something, you know, like
Jett Stone (27:37)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (27:38)
and he will need support for that. And that's something that as men we haven't experienced, many of us through our life, because like you just said, we we haven't asked for help because
I think part of this is that part of the provider, like the grander idea of the provider, as I said at the start, is not just financial. I think, because I've experienced this, and and again, Jet, every time I say this, I I add the caveat of like, and I don't have kids, right? Of if I'm not okay, or at least if I don't give the appearance of being okay.
The b the deeply held belief is that my castle will crumble
Jett Stone (28:22)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (28:22)
because I have to be okay in order to take care of my kids, in order to take care of my my my wife or my my spouse, like or your partner or whoever it is of my parents as they start to get older. and so, like, where is the space for me to be provided for? And well, actually, no, I'm not gonna take that. And I and I'm gonna say it again.
And to those to those of you who've listened from the start, you've heard me say this like four times now. But go back to listen to the episode at the start with Eleanor Donohue from James's place, who specifically says: when men come into her literal suicide crisis space, the biggest pushback that she gets from these men is, I shouldn't be here. Someone needs this more than me.
Jett Stone (29:08)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (29:09)
That's not those men providing for their family. That's those men providing for
Everybody else except themselves. And that's where I think this is more deeply ingrained. I think this is not just messaging. I think this is generational programming that is gonna take a long time to undo. And again, like I said before, if ever
Jett Stone (29:31)
I know. That's why I said I'm I'm somewhat cynical about it, but you make a point. I cause I I feel that too, that like if I'm not okay, the castle crumbles. Like that it's not objectively true, but it's this pervasive sense that like sits in my gut. and the other point there is that sometimes what can help men.
undo it and I've seen this in my clinical practice is if you show them the downstream effects of it. I'm starting to work with older men in my practice now. older being, you know, into the retirement age, I'll leave that vague. sixties, seventies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It depends where you are exactly.
Chris (30:16)
Well if you'll if you're listening in twenty years from now, r retirement age is a hundred and five. Yeah.
Jett Stone (30:24)
and I'm seeing the effects on their physical health.
I mean, we all know men die younger on average. and that in so many cases it's some more some healthier person who's then going to have to take care of them. So all the dependency fears that they've built up their entire life protecting from become extreme on the other side of it. You were talking about having someone wipe your ass, right? Like that's the extreme version of it. And it
becomes more of a reality for so many men who've worked themselves into the ground. and because they had to,
Chris (31:08)
What w what was it all for?
Jett Stone (31:10)
they always had a reason. It's not like, you know, and it was a noble reason too. It was virtuous. I'm giving my s son the ability to, you know, go to college. I'm giving them a roof over their head. I'm giving them the financial security that I never had. And that's where this part of the the what we're talking about here is like some of
it this is reparation, meaning that I di I had a father who did the same thing for me, maybe, or I had a father who didn't, who fell short. Or I needed to be the one, my mom was suffering. And so I needed to keep my family together. And so in some ways I'm gonna work my ass off now out of guilt. Almost more so than love. If you think about it, for a lot of guys, if if you track if you trace it, it's like, yes, it is a loving thing to do.
And and that's the rationalization that we can put forth about providing. But a lot of times it comes from this sense of like guilt from earlier in their life when they're like from not having or having and trying to keep the legacy alive. It could it could come about in many different directions. And so part of undoing it is getting in touch with that. Like where the hell did this all come from? That I'm so hellbent on driving the bus.
Chris (32:25)
Yeah. All the time and never pulling over for a coffee and a piss. Like literally
Jett Stone (32:29)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (32:30)
just driving it and driving it and driving it until and and you know, I I'm doing a talk on International Men's Day and I'm I'm creating a new one, which is nice because it's nice to be challenged. and this organization who they're they're a well-being organization, they want to talk to me about the, you know, the holistic sense of well being, and and how we how we don't
connect enough the mental and the physical. And I was thinking about what the best way for me to to get into this is, and actually what I think about is how many men I've worked with over the years who are coming to therapy and the the kind of cliche of the therapy client who comes to therapy at a point of crisis. You know, it's like the guy who goes to the doctor and he's already got stage four cancer because he's ignored it, you know, and actually I'm gonna put a pin in that because that's a conversation that I want to have me and you down the line.
And the reason that they've come at that point and not months earlier is because they literally don't have the ability or didn't have the ability to see the level of stress that had built up in them. Because throughout their whole life, they'd seen the men around them normalize that level of stress. And then they had normalized that level of stress. And then they're in a business meeting and they're they're in the middle of like a million pound sales.
Blah blah blah. And they completely lose the inability to speak. And they think that there's something like chronically wrong. They think they've got some diagnosable. And I'm just like, you're fucking exhausted. Tell me about your life. And then I replay them back what they've said. Very basic therapeutic technique. And it's like, I'm I'm exhausted just speaking that to you. When was the last time you actually stopped?
When was the last time you like I I eulogized the concept of the hammock, right? Like when was the last time you went and just lay in a fucking hammock? For an hour and said to your partner, I actually just need an hour. And and when I've had the hour, you can also have an hour. Because when I've had the hour, I come back fighting fit because I haven't had an hour to myself. And no and and and it I I you know, I'm working
Two jobs, I'm working t 60 hour weeks, I'm working, I don't like one job, and I'm I and and it's like because there's two poles here as I see it. There's the men who don't realize that they already have enough, more than, right? And on the flip side of that, because this is part of the research that I use in the mental health workshop, is that during the 2008 financial crisis, the rate of male unemployment spiked.
And you can track directly the rate of male suicide with it.
Jett Stone (35:22)
Yes.
Chris (35:23)
The graph is like, you know, causation correlation, you know, like it's impossible to ignore. because those men would rather be dead than live with the shame of not being able to provide. And at the top, those men also feel shame if they can't provide, even though they're all they're doing, as you said before, all they're doing is providing more than enough for their.
And so it's this isn't like tied to economics in terms of class or you know, you don't talk about class in America because you're not allowed to. but you you you you can you can talk about like poverty and and wealth. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter where you lie on that spectrum, that pressure exists deeply. And if you can't do it, if you can't provide as a man, something inside feels completely skewed.
Jett Stone (36:17)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (36:18)
And that to me is something that I'm reckoning with every day. Because I don't need to I I don't need to worry about it. My wife has a job, you know? But we're about to have a mortgage. And if I lose my job, then the pressure's all on her. And but that sh the pressure shouldn't all be on her. The pressure should only ever be all on me. But she doesn't want that. And neither do I. But but but I'm a fucking hypocrite just like every other therapist is.
Jett Stone (36:46)
That's right, as am I. and it's not even just that you you become a burden, you know, when we think about the most tragic death by suicide from financial precarity, you know, from not having feel feeling like you're able to provide for your family. It's some of the research has shown that some of it comes from the sense of perceived burdensomeness on your family for not being enough too. And so
that runs deep. It's that you're failing some sacred duty that was essentially programmed into you from such an early age that you don't even necessarily you can't even think of look at it critically anymore until it comes back to really haunt you and
Yeah, it's it's it it's it is sad to to watch
Chris (37:43)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (37:44)
that play out. And the more the longer it goes, the harder it is to to undo.
Chris (37:51)
Yes.
And this is this is exactly lovely segue. This is exactly where I wanted to come in with this because the question is like, what do we do about this? Right. And what I say to my whether I'm speaking to 15-year-olds or 50-year-old CEOs, and don't tell the CEOs, but I deliver the same men's mental health workshop to them as I do to the children, because in terms of their like emotional intelligence, let's call it, it's not so different. the
thing that I say to them is, no matter how old you are, the longer you the longer it takes for you to address this, the harder it will be to address. Right? So for those listening now, and I'm gonna I'm gonna go first because I I I have this concept of like, this is one of those things where we can we we we really need to do the yes and approach with with young with young men, which is to say, go and produce, go and create.
Go and do something that is meaningful for you. Because look, for some people, earning a shitload of money is meaningful for them. For other people, doing something that is that feeds the soul, nourishes the soul is what gives them meaning. Whatever it is, go and find that. Because the the mental health statistics around unemployment are inarguable. You know, the longer you're unemployed, the worse your mental health is. However, what we then should say is, and can we also talk about this fact that
You don't have to wear, you know, you're you are not Atlas with the world on your shoulders. And the more you do that, again, we can show you as therapists the long-term pitfalls of that. So can we talk about what a healthy version of that is? And that's where I'm gonna throw you the ball again now and say from your perspective, what does a healthy version of that look like for let's say a twenty-two, twenty-three year old who's just starting out in his career?
Because I've worked with a lot of guys who are in their 40s and 50s, and I'm like, what would happen if you took a demotion? You know? What would happen if you went down to four days a week? You know, what would happen if because you're the owner of your own business, if you just slacked off a little because you're already earning high six figures and maybe you could earn slightly lower six figures? Like, but that's very difficult to do once you reach that age. So how would you have that conversation? Or is that the conversation that you'd have?
Jett Stone (40:14)
You know, so some of it
It's very hard to talk, and you you know this, all therapists know this, it's hard to talk someone out of a bad idea or into a good idea. Right? And so I'm
Chris (40:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Jett Stone (40:31)
I'm humble when it comes to the limits of my ability to do that. If that were the case, then people typing to chat GPT and getting responses, that would cure all because you know, they'd get they'd get all you know, they'd get all the best solutions out there and and they they'd read about it. To me sometimes
this is where culture and society impacts psychology and impacts the therapy profession. Is that for example, in the US, if you're a 23-year-old, as you said, and all of your friends are working high-paying jobs on Wall Street, and you want to be able to move to Manhattan or Brooklyn and pay the absurd rent costs, how do you tell?
Chris (41:16)
I looked at him
the other day. It's five thousand dollars a month for a
Jett Stone (41:20)
No
Chris (41:21)
for a for a one bedroom flat. Like
Jett Stone (41:24)
Exactly. I mean, everyone can look that up and see how I mean and that's what you want. That that's the company you keep. Those are the your friends. That's those like how do you just break free from looking around you and seeing all the things that our people are doing, right? The and this is a status thing as well. How do you just say, Okay, you know what, I'm going to find my place and kind of pull back, live somewhere else, live farther away from
the cultural center or from the center of my friendship and identity. That's so hard to do. And so sometimes, you know, I'm and here's where I say, okay, well let's dismantle the capitalist system. No, like that's not going to happen in my lifetime. But it it does help to like build social groups outside of
like where you might be comfortable. It might be time if the people around you aren't giving you a sense of you can be your you you can belong and be your free self free self,
Chris (42:30)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (42:30)
even if you're not like on on the same track. And I think
To stay in that situation as a twenty third takes a lot of self confidence and also money coming in from somewhere else. And so I think a lot a lot of this comes from like
I wanna like moving sometimes, finding your your people elsewhere, who
Chris (42:55)
Yeah.
Jett Stone (42:55)
are going to accept you, you know, for who you are. That's the difficult part of it.
You know, who you are is not what you do. And I think getting out of that trap is very challenging unless you find other people who see who you are as opposed to what you do. And so part of that is therapists, we ask, who are you? Like what what what what are your dreams? What are your aspirations? What are your deepest fears? Not not when are you becoming SVP? When are you becoming general
Chris (43:23)
Yeah, I mean my the questi the question I ask is if I took Right.
Jett Stone (43:27)
manager? When are you becoming right?
Chris (43:29)
If I took away all of your medals and certificates from when you were fourteen years old, all of your gongs, all of your titles, everything, aren't you still a good person? Like No, go on.
Jett Stone (43:38)
Yes. L let me let me add to that. Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but
it's like sometimes the best therapeutic intervention is being very unappro unimpressed by accolades.
Chris (43:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jett Stone (43:53)
And and not not in like like a dismissive
Chris (43:58)
Dismissive.
Jett Stone (43:59)
way, but in a way like that's great that you're an executive, but like I wanna I actually want to know a little bit more about your relationship.
With your son. it's not to say it's not it's not being dismissive. Sometimes you really have to understand a man's work to understand who they are. And I do try to to go there to the some of the some of the more arcane jobs people have. I really try to figure it out. But you you can't feed that beast. You kind of have to ask them questions that get them off their feet or make observations that like destabilize themselves as being the provider.
And as another man, doing that to another man, that's pretty powerful sometimes. It's like, here's a guy who could be asking me about, you know, my bonus or, you know, what what my next step is in terms of my career. But here he is asking about something that I've never heard another man ask me.
Chris (44:55)
Yeah. I and I'm I wanna wrap this up shortly because we also want to talk about the new website. I d I just sense that there is still this there is an and it i it touches on what you just said, which is if can you go and find people who are less interested in the financial in your financial prowess? What I would say is that my hope is at least
The the vast majority of male friendship groups, sure, okay, you're happy for your friend if he's bought a new house and you're happy for your friend if he's got a nice car. I make the joke, like, you know, it's it's weird if your mates are are super happy if you've got a hot wife, like you what or whatever you're into. I make that joke, right? It's like, but mostly if you're really friends with somebody, you should care most of all are they are they safe? Are they happy? Are they content in what they're doing? do they have someone
that that th that they love and love back, are their kids okay? Like that's what I care about with my friends. I've never cared. Like I have friends who earn bananas money in the city of London. And I have my friend Adam who's part of that social group who has been a jobbing yoga instructor for the for the past 10 years and doesn't earn very much. But who's happier? Like I don't think either of them are. They're happy in their own way. And you know a friend of ours once asked a great question. He said who's weirder? Me?
Or my friend who works in the city. And obviously, my friend in the city is like, well, you know, laughing, pointing at me, like, well, you're very clearly weirder than me. And I was like, dude, I love you, but I would not swap my life for yours. Like, there's no amount of money. But but I'm very happy for you that you find joy in that because he does. Like, great. And that's the thing. It's is if if if you want to be the guy who earns millions of pounds, go and do it. But don't sneer at me if I'm not.
Because I'm happy in ways that you'll never understand. Because you don't have the time to. And neither is superior than the other. And that's what I think we need to move beyond. Is that financial is is the number one. Because that unfortunately is what it's all about in what Louisa Toxbed Monk called the capitalist patriarchy, which I'm still working on, is like still probably the best worst wording I've heard for it. and that's a struggle, right? Because
I could I could work five days a week as a therapist and earn more money. I choose to have my Fridays off. If men's therapy is successful, chances are I'll reduce my therapy hours, you know? One
Jett Stone (47:29)
Yes.
Chris (47:30)
one one day perhaps if it ever makes enough money, because at the n at the minute it's losing me money, but that's fine.
Jett Stone (47:35)
And you're
you're lovable even when you're not useful, Chris.
Chris (47:38)
Well,
exactly. But I don't but but but but the thing is, I've worked on myself long enough to know that that's true for me. A lot of men haven't made it to that point yet. But even even me who knows that that's true for me, it doesn't mean that I don't have to combat the nagging voice at the back of my head that says, earn, provide, work, earn, provide, like prove, prove, prove, prove all the time.
And what would
Jett Stone (48:01)
Yes. And
Chris (48:03)
it be for you? And I wanna ask the the listeners here, like to the men listening.
What would it be like for you if just for a day you could just take that hat off, the weight of that hat, you could put down the Atlas Globe? What would you do for a day if you didn't have to think about all of that? I mean, people be running around the streets with their shirts off, like going, going, going mad because it's so alien to us.
Jett Stone (48:26)
Maybe we'd read fiction.
Chris (48:29)
Wow, yeah. Good idea. Yeah. Rather th rather than optimizing, which is the episode the the the final episode of season one. Yeah.
Jett Stone (48:35)
That's right.
Yes. you know it's
Chris (48:41)
Yeah, maybe we'd read some fiction. Yeah.
Jett Stone (48:43)
speaking
for myself as as always. your, you know, I guess as a final thought to whoever's listening, I say this to you, to myself, is like, you're you're worth keeping around in in your family. And that's an understatement. You're worth keeping around even when you're not earning. Long before, as I said to you, you were ever useful.
you were a lovable person and you still are. And so I'm times getting people to see like the relationships, the best relationships that you have aren't based on all of what you've done. It's the people who love you are actually the ones who know who you are. and and you just have to believe that. You have to start to practice believing that over time. Yes.
Chris (49:33)
Mm-hmm. It's it's who you are, not what you are.
Yeah. But that's practice, like you say. Practice believing that and and also practice being it, you know. Try being useless for a day and see what comes up, you know. See what mad thoughts come up. And then if some really difficult thoughts come up in that space, go men't therapy and find yourself a therapist because that's what a lot of us are avoiding too, I think.
Jett Stone (49:59)
Yeah, like what happens what would you have to feel if you weren't running and running and running and running? Exactly. And sometimes what you discover is like, my gosh, I'm so bored, I don't know who I am, or I'm so lonely. and
Chris (50:09)
Yes. Yeah. I don't like myself.
Jett Stone (50:12)
yes.
Chris (50:13)
Yeah. Okay. This is another one of those where I feel like we could do a part two and three and four. but you know, we're always trying to respect the audience and not do the Joe Rogan three hour podcasts because nobody wants to listen to to us.
Jett Stone (50:25)
Yeah, we yeah, and I also don't have enough coffee going here.
Chris (50:28)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's still still n it's but n nine AM. so the irony here is not lost on me that
We're talking about being a provider and I'm now going to talk to you about my business. So
Jett Stone (50:42)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (50:43)
you don't need to point that out in the comments anywhere. but we have exciting news. And the exciting news for those of you who are the therapists on Men's Therapy Hub, or any of my friends, or you in particular, Jet, you will know just how nightmarish Men's Therapy Hub 1.0 was in terms of admin for me.
and so over the past 12 months, almost every penny that Men's Therapy Hub has has made has gone back into a new website. Jet has also invested in Men's Therapy Hub financially and emotionally. I hope you don't mind me saying that, Jet. I can edit it out if you do. and so Men's Therapy Hub 2.0 has launched. And what I will say is, wow, it's so good. It looks like
The the the agency who we hired to do our website said, No offense, Chris, but the website you designed looked like it was designed in two thousand and eight, which is when I started using the internet. So perhaps it is from 2008. so it no longer exists. And I would recommend you go to men'stherapyhub.com. Everything has moved to dot com now. you can try out our new shortlist feature, which Jet and I spent many hours coming up with something novel. whereas a client now you can
Answer three basic questions. So the questions are how do you want your session? So online or in person, the the the kind of subjects that you want to touch upon, so they're kind of broad. And then what you would like from your therapist. So in terms of would you like to adjust a space to be heard, to talk through past traumas, to be a bit more direct and focused? and it gives you your short list. And from your short list you can start to then reduce down. So rather than having
Like on the UK site, 170 therapists, you've probably got 50 to choose from. And then if you put in stress, then you've probably got 25 to choose from rather than 170. So hopefully that will be useful. But the most exciting thing, probably from your side jet, is that men's therapyhub.com is now officially live in the US. And you have 10 therapists signed up already. And you've promised me that you're gonna beat my number, which I hope so, given that you have
a much bigger populace in the US. and yeah, so I do you want to talk about your phase or excitement about men's therapy of two point US launch?
Jett Stone (53:15)
Yeah, I think it's untested in many ways. Like the the therapy world gets reduced to the therapy in the United States and it looks different than it does in the UK and and elsewhere. We have managed care here, we have health insurance, which is such a complex thing. It's such a headache. And so
We've tried to build this site to accommodate to therapists who are in network with insurance providers out of network. and it's just a badass website. I I have to give
Chris (53:54)
Yes it is.
Jett Stone (53:55)
a shout out not just to you for for spearheading this, Chris, but also to Bias, who's an incredible designer. And I think that we've created something that's not just helpful for men seeking male therapists. Of course, that's
what what it's there for. But it's also like if you're a therapist yourself and you're trying to find a referral for someone else, if you're a family member of any kind, a mom, a wife, whomever, and you're trying to find a vetted solid base of male therapists to get your short list, TM. not yet. well
Chris (54:34)
yeah.
Jett Stone (54:35)
well you have men's therapy hub dot com. and I I think it's
It's built in a way that I hope is really useful and intuitive. We we want your feedback. And we just want this to be very useful for you. We don't want this just to be another directory out there. and we also hope that it becomes like like the name suggests, a hub where you can like bring together resources, podcast episodes, and eventually I think Chris and I are going to try to do more with it, have more.
community events and
Chris (55:13)
Yes.
Jett Stone (55:14)
I'm really looking forward to all that.
Chris (55:16)
Maybe
once we've both moved house in the new year, we can we can start on in that in earnest.
Jett Stone (55:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (55:21)
and another really cool function that's that that Tobias came up with is if you go on the therapist pages, not the the there's a really cool like dating app style carousel that you can use. But if you go on the actual therapist pages or you go on the resource pages, there's little topic pills. And so if you click on depression,
It will take you to a page where you can see all the therapy. You can see some therapists, and then you can click to see all therapists that work with depression, and you can see all the resources that talk about depression. And I mean, apparently that is like search engine gold. But actually, just as a user, I think just that's brilliant. and so I'm really excited. this website is gonna set us up for a long time. and I'm really happy with with the work that we've done on it. and of course.
You know, now is when we say if you're a therapist in the US, please join. if you're a therapist in the UK, please join if you haven't already. Thank you for being here, supporting us. I know that we haven't given many of you any referrals yet. we're working hard to do that. It's gonna take some time to cut through. I genuinely believe in 12 months from now that it w we'll start to get some some serious cut through.
for US therapists, we're doing the same as we did with the UK. It's free to join until we have what we consider to be a reasonable number of therapists, so probably more than 100, I would guess. and then it will only be $10 a month. it's now in the UK to join, it's £10 a month, which is still much cheaper. One of our rivals is still charging £24 a month, and I don't know how they have the goal to do that, but that's a decision for them to make. We are absolutely about
creating change and not about making money for me and Jet because we're trying at least to not be hypocrites, you know? and and to trying to make a difference rather than just focus on money, money, money. So
Jett Stone (57:17)
Yeah, this is a passion project, and we need as much passion from you all as we possibly can in order to make this a reality. And I know that, you
Chris (57:24)
Yes. Yes.
Jett Stone (57:26)
know, so many therapists out there do care about this
Chris (57:29)
Absolutely.
Jett Stone (57:30)
cause and and bringing this to life too, so
Chris (57:33)
Yeah.
And if and if you're n if you're not a therapist, then please be more like my friend Nori, who is probably the biggest supporter of this because I know that like four people or something listen to the podcast now because of them. And I think that like they are using a therapist for men's therapy hub. I think they've encouraged friends to use a therapist for men's therapy hub. So if you care even one bit about me and Jet, or if you care one bit about men's men's mental health and men's therapy, then please
Jett Stone (58:00)
Guilt is powerful.
Chris (58:02)
Please send absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Send this to your friends
Jett Stone (58:04)
Ha ha ha.
Chris (58:05)
or else. no, but but please please please do share this because people are more likely to listen if you send it to them than if they discover it off their own off their own bat. So we rely on word of mouth for everything at the moment. I'm working really hard on the search engine and the AI stuff, which is going quite well. If you search like therapy for men in the UK, we're usually number one or two, which is good.
So yes, we are we're working hard and we'll continue to work hard. So thank you. And we've got some really interesting conversations coming up. there's a conversation that Jet did with Krista Fisher from Movember, which I think is probably one of the best CPD sessions I've ever done. I've got s
Jett Stone (58:45)
Me too.
Chris (58:46)
yeah, right. I've got some really interesting conversations with a woman who a woman who does like dance music to electronic music as as as being therapeutic to reduce stress.
we've got a conversation with a guy about removing parents from your life and the challenge of that and the kind of ethical quandary that comes with that. So he's Josh Connolly, who's big on Instagram. So yeah, we like like I said in the trailer, we've we've got some people who are now reaching out to us to come on the podcast yet. And I'm gonna I'm gonna really I'm gonna I'm gonna set you the challenge once again live on air to go and find somebody who doesn't have a PhD to talk to.
I don't Okay, okay.
Jett Stone (59:27)
Stu you're you're triggering my existential load here. Okay. Can you can you scale
back? fine. I I you're point taken. Also I wanna
Chris (59:37)
But I but
I I love your sessions with them because again it's it's like free C P D for me every time I'm editing it. I'm taking notes, it's brilliant.
Jett Stone (59:44)
Yeah.
Chris (59:44)
I just yeah, I would just love to hear you talking to someone who's a bit off the beaten track.
Jett Stone (59:49)
Good g point taken. The I also want to add that I'm gonna be in Washington DC in November, I think it's November eighteenth for the American Institute of Boys and Men, their inaugural summit. So if you're going and you're listening to this, reach out to me. say hi, send me an email if you're if you're gonna be there and would love to connect.
Chris (1:00:12)
Jet at Mens TherapyHub dot com. The newly launched email. yeah, get in touch with us. I'm Chris at mens therapy hub.com if you want to get in touch with me. Thank you, Jet. Thank you for supporting me through all of this as l as ever. And I love these conversations and here's to many more.
Jett Stone (1:00:29)
Thanks, Chris.
