Movement is Medicine – How Music, Rhythm and Dancing Help Us Heal

Chris (00:01)

Welcome to No Man's An Island, a podcast powered by Men's Therapy Hub, a directory of male therapists for male clients. On this episode, I'm joined by Emma Marshall, who might just have my absolute dream job. She's a PhD researcher exploring how music, rhythm, and movement can help us regulate stress and reconnect with our bodies. Emma's work grew out of her own extraordinary experiences of longterm health problems and how moving her body helped her to recover.

on that experience as well as her background in the music industry, she created Movement is Medicine, bringing together neuroscience, music, rhythm, and physical movement to help people heal from mental and physical health challenges. Now, I'm particularly interested in this issue for a variety of reasons, not least because I feel like a lot of men miss out on the joy of dancing for fear, perhaps, of being seen as feminine, but also because I'm from Manchester, as many of you already know, and I've been going to raves and festivals since I was 16. Sorry.

And they have been and continue to be one of the biggest bringers of joy and excitement in my life. And we're recording this in mid September and I actually just got back from a festival in Poland called Mystic Creatures, hence the raspy voice. And that all means that I have a lot to say on this issue, but I promise I'll let Emma do most of the talking. Hey Emma.

Emma (01:17)

Hello, thanks for having me.

Chris (01:18)

It's a pleasure and I've been following you on social media for quite a while because like I said in the intro, I really do feel like you have one of if not the best jobs in the world. But before we get into all of that, I know that this is actually a question that you get asked a lot because of the job that you do, but it's also the first question we always ask on this podcast, which is how did you get into this work? So how did you go from being, sounds like chronically ill to having this PhD focus on movement and dancing and rhythm and...

oh how it benefits us.

Emma (01:51)

So I worked in the music industry uh for about ten plus years, like full time. Even before that I was doing bits and pieces, you know. And then um I went through some really significant health challenges and it was over the course of probably like four to five years that my body just kind of got worse and worse and worse, but

They didn't really know what was wrong with me. Um, so there was no real like full-on diagnosis or treatment plan. It was just g being thrown different um syndromes and different things over and over and over again, really. Um until 2018, I just got seriously ill. I was like, I just the only way to explain it was that I just felt like I was gonna drop dead. That was that was the only way to explain it.

Chris (02:33)

Okay.

Emma (02:34)

and

So I spoke to one of my friends and my friend was just like, Right, we need to we need to, you know, figure this out and I think that when you're in the music industry, it's a very fast paced environment. Like if you don't keep up

You're kind of left, you know, that's it, left behind. Um, but there was a point, it got to a point where I was like, I can't work anymore. Like I actually need to stop and just figure out what's wrong with my body. Um, so raised some money, went into functional medicine. Functional medicine thought I had Lyme disease and issues with mould and some other stuff going on. So it kind of fits almost under this like autoimmune bracket, but also not. Um, and then I went to this hospital in Mexico, they were like, You don't have mould, you we don't really know what is wrong with you, but obviously you're really

Sick and it was kind of in this neuroimmune world. Um, they weren't sure whether or not it was a virus. and yeah, I was just having like loads of tests, loads of treatments. It was all very overwhelming. Um, and then I left the hospital after like three and a half, four weeks, went to the jungle, went and worked with the shamans, did like plant medicines, stayed in Mexico for a while to do that. And one of the things that I realized.

whilst I was in these ceremonies was that there was always drumming. So they always had drums and what I realized as well is that they were using drums to get people to move. Because if you're sat still and your body's trying to go through this purging process and it's not moving, you're not allowing kind of the automatic response to happen. And then I realized I was like, that's what happens at Rave. Like we just listen to the drums and then we move. and so that kind of planted the seed. And then when I got back to the UK, like I had nothing, I lost everything from being

ill, um, was living in my parents' spare room and was on universal credit and I was just doing loads of research, like loads and loads and loads research and

Realised that there wasn't loads of it, but there was enough for me to kind of gather the understanding that if you start to move as part of your recovery process, then you're gonna get better, basically. And so one day I woke up very intuitively um and put music on, electronic music in particular, and just let my body kind of move to the music. And there was no like choreography, there was no rhyme or reason, it was just like this just feels good. And it worked and it helped with symptoms because the symptoms that I

was still dealing with were things like pain,

PTSD symptoms, like, you know, panic attacks, like nightmares, not sleeping very well, et cetera. Um, and just really bad fatigue, like fatigue to your core. And so when you don't want to move and you've got music that is essentially almost making you move because it's a natural response, that was where the magic started to happen. And then I did it every day, uh at least one song a day, and then I obviously built it up over time. And then

Chris (05:28)

Hmph.

Emma (05:29)

it really worked

really well basically. I just gave myself this kind of like own framework and methodology to work with where I like tapping on certain points of my body as I was doing it. It w everything was all about rhythm basically and like connecting to my actual physical body. Um, where was the pain if I had pain, for example, in my

chest, like tapping on the chest, you know, until it went away, that kind of stuff. So yeah, developed this whole framework, tested it on loads of other people, just did it through Instagram, was just running like donation-based kind of classes, making sure I wasn't an anomaly in all of this work. Um and also more to the point as well, I didn't have any resources because it was COVID. So I

Like I think that if I was in a normal circumstance, I would have had resources like pertaining to a recovery process. That didn't happen for me. I was literally like gone from Mexico, came back, was like left on my own. Like there was no support system. So it was kind of this or no choice, to be honest. Otherwise you just, you know, remain sick and not recovered. Um

Chris (06:32)

Yeah.

Emma (06:33)

And uh yeah, so built it up over the last six years. I made a full recovery, worked with loads of people, is been taught to like tens of thousands of people at this point. We've done it in loads of different arenas, everything from music spaces through to fitness spaces through to corporate uh care homes, uh schools.

I've worked with a stroke patient, um, that's an ongoing process. Like there's been loads of different ways in which this has kind of been built into different industries and what I've been doing with it, um, to kind of develop this framework that is somewhat universal as possible. Obviously, nothing is universal, like, not ever not everything's gonna work for everyone, but if we can kind of find some sort of like common ground for it to work for as many people as possible, that's the aim, really.

Chris (07:20)

Amazing and so I have to try to be here not just like the biggest cheerleader ever for this because I mean I am and that will become clear I guess what I'm curious about is I'm trying to hear this Through the lens or see this through the lens of a bit of a naysayer, right? You know Somebody who is like this sounds like hippie woo woo bullshit. You know this this doesn't sound like science, know this

This sounds like something else. And I guess as I return to myself, I would say, well, actually this, I think this is something else. I think this is something that perhaps maybe straight science can't just explain because, and here's where I want to bring you back in because to me, this sounds like something primal. This is something like that. If you look back at humanity for thousands and thousands of years sitting around the fire and

and creating sounds together, stomping our feet, hitting a drum, like drums are one of the first instruments, right? It sounds very basic, actually. It sounds like a core human experience that many of us now miss out on.

Emma (08:33)

So yes and no, some of us miss out on it because we because rhythm isn't ingrained into our Western civilization. West rhythm was actually

Removed from our Western civilization. And this came about with the colonization of the Roman Empire. There was a lot of rituals that have been used since the dawn of time based around music, drums, dance, like you said, around a fire, etc., in grief rituals, birth rituals, fertility rituals, you know, prayers to different gods, um, especially.

around the world, we can call it pagan or we can call it, you know, Aztec or we could call it Mayan. Like there's so many different gods um that have existed in different um communities.

Each of them have this ingrained thing, drumming, mu music, movement, dance is is there. and the Roman Empire basically came in and were like, no, sorry, don't do that. Um, it's demonic. And they removed a lot of rhythmic tradition um based on the guise of now we are fundamentally Catholic and it is this is this is the protocol and this is what we follow. Um and so

music and our and our use of it was fundamentally changed, like big time. Um it doesn't say that it was eradicated entirely because you've got um places like Ireland. Ireland is a really good example of, I think, like mixing and blending tradition. Like they've they've held on to rhythmic tradition, but they've also held on to Catholicism. Same with Mexico actually. So there are different countries that have held on to certain traditions. Brazil is another one. But at the same time

Um, what is our votern day version of this where we haven't had rhythmic tradition readily available in the same way? And it's raving. That's really what my whole kind of hypothesis is based on. So there's so much science to support this. there's the anthropological side of things, which I've just discussed, and the historical context side of things, which I've discussed, and that's valid, that's extremely valid. And it's the same in any kind of industry, um, like even if you're looking at plants, you know, you've got the you've got the actual kind of um botanists, and then you've got the ethnobotanists, and they're doing slightly different

Jobs like one's looking at like historical stuff, and one's looking at like the chemist stuff, and it's like the same's going on here. So you've got on one side the anthropologists who know all of this. This is all very, very clear. Um, in any kind of ancient or historical like um context or scripture or whatever, but then on the flip side of that, you've also got the scientists who are studying what's actually happening to the body, and both are true, both are valid, even more to the point. So I'm one of the scientists.

That is very spiritual, that believes in both at the same time. and that's where my work has evolved into. I've you I've become a scientist of this work, which is like search and discovery, what's actually going on physiologically, that's my interest because we can sit here as people who love the scene, who love going to raves or festivals. You I don't need to convince you. You're not my audience. Yeah, you're I don't need to convince you.

Chris (11:34)

no, I'm sold. No, But that's

why you're here, Emma.

Emma (11:38)

Yeah, you you get it. I need to convince the people who control the budgets and who are the people in charge of things like education, for example. those are the people that need convincing of this work and why it's so essential and why it's so important. Um the the science and the physiological stuff is is the only way that that shift is going to happen.

Because you can ply people with historical evidence forever. If they don't care. If you can say, This is what happens to the brain, this is what happens to the heart, this is what happens to the nervous system, this is what happens to people's stress, and you can show it in data format, which is what we just did at Drumsheds in um March.

Chris (12:21)

Yeah, I

wanna get to this.

Emma (12:22)

Yeah, that that's where the change starts to happen. And this is where my work is going more focused into because my my actual interest is stress. That's my interest. And the reason it's stress is because stress is universal and so is music. So if we can marry up and start to look at what are the universal elements of stress and what the universal elements of music that allow them to coincide and also, you know, mitigate music can mitigate stress. What is that? Is it the drum pattern?

I think it is, but it's then f about looking at what rhythmic drum patterns suit what environments

also what people uh you know what age what demographic like there's so much research that needs to go into this area in particular but the premise is and this has been studied which is we know rhythm rhythm is great for human health like we just do. Um so there is this like heavy science available that is a like what I do is like essentially look at the stuff that has been done and then apply it. And I've taught this to you know like people that you just wouldn't expect to get it.

And they have got it. And I'm talking like people that have never been to a rave, don't like electronic music, are in their 60s or 70s. and they understand it because I've provided the right data. And so that's the key for me to get this work into the environments that we want to get it into, it's providing the right data, basically.

Chris (13:50)

And that's what I've been really interested in speaking to you about because for those that don't know, a lot of the rhetoric and understanding around rave culture will have derived from the early nineties, the kind of scare of free parties that were going on and, know, thousands of ravers turning up and trashing a gaffe, which wasn't ideal. And then, you know, leaving disaster in their wake. But the reason that those raves were...

was so essential and so successful was because of the experience of the people who were going to them. And those were a lot of people who were not well off, for example. They were struggling to fit into the kind of neoliberal system that was happening around them. There was increased deprivation and they suddenly found community. And you know, the kind of joke that was made at the time by a lot of, you know, like drum and bass and black DJs would be finally the white man was dancing, you know,

Emma (14:48)

Yeah.

Chris (14:48)

like.

And it's true in a sense that suddenly

Emma (14:51)

Yeah.

Chris (14:52)

white people had a way to move that wasn't just like line dancing or, you know, Saturday night fever.

Emma (14:55)

Literally. Stiff.

Yeah, stiff. Like very stiff and very like prim and proper. Like the the the classic, you know, white British way was suddenly people were l finding themselves lost in the music, thank God, because this is what we need. And I will also say that I think for men, 'cause I think that it's important to keep the topic there for this as well.

Chris (15:24)

Yes, yes.

Emma (15:25)

That is essential. And it's so funny. I was at my friend's party the other day and it got to six in the morning. And I'm sober. So I was as long as the vibe is good and the music is good, I'm good. Um and my two very good friends were DJing and I looked out into the crowd and it was still busy and I said to them both, I was like, this is sick, like you should really take note of what you're doing here. The fact that you've still got a packed room at six in the morning is is a lot is good.

Chris (15:54)

Testament, yeah.

Emma (15:55)

It's

testament, exactly. But majority of them were men. I would say about ninety percent of the room w was men. And I said to my friends, I was like

This is essential. This is essential. These men here need this more than you'll ever understand. Um, there's a reason that the room is filled with men at this point in time. Um, they need to shake it out. You know, as we know, men are less likely to process emotion, cry, you know, do the things that are seen as effeminate or whatever. Like if you're able to go and skank it out on a dance floor until six in the morning, and that's your therapy, and that's how you really

Release and process whatever it is, you don't even need to know what it is. And keep your mind and keep your body in a certain you know way, like you're good. Like that's that's great. That's exactly what you should be doing.

Chris (16:45)

Yeah, and that's where, to go back to that previous point, I think the image problem that rave culture had

Emma (16:53)

Yeah.

Chris (16:53)

has probably, you know, along with the kind of the drug war and all of that that happened kind of 20, 30 years previously, and of course, look, we're sitting here talking about rave culture, we're not going to go into the drug culture associated because we know that that's part of it for some people and not for everybody, and that's fine, that's a personal choice as far as I'm concerned.

as long as you're not harming anybody, which let's be honest, people on drugs are less likely to harm people than people who are drinking, but that's an entirely different podcast.

Emma (17:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (17:21)

The image problem that rave culture had and still has to a certain degree, do you think that's

Emma (17:27)

Yeah, so has.

Chris (17:28)

partly why there hasn't been such funding into research like yours before? There hasn't been, you know, there isn't easy access to art grants because it is art.

It is artistic expression, DJing, like a proper fucking DJ is one of the greatest skills that you can have, I think, because like the drum set, you're gonna get to your research, that's 10,000 people that you have in the palm of your hand. There's not many people who can do that. And yet the funding just isn't there for it. So

Emma (17:58)

No, there's not no

Chris (18:01)

how do we start to change that image?

Emma (18:04)

Wah.

How do we? I don't know. It's such a it's such a minefield. So when I first started this, I coming from working in electronic music and w music, one thing I will say about it, as much as it's a mad environment, music the music industry is mental. Like it just is. It's it's just nonstop, it's so fast paced, like it's just one thing after the other after the other, it's literally never ending. And if you're that way inclined, if you are like ADHD, it's perfect. Like everyone in music, we joke about it, it's like everyone.

Musical ADHD because we're just like and but I was therefore slightly naive to the way in which the world worked that wasn't music, right? And what I mean by that is in music, if you've got an idea, you just find the right collaborators and you find the right partnerships and you just hustle it and you figure it out and you make it work. And most of the time, people want to work with people on a collaborative basis because

We all know each other, all the creatives know each other. It's kind of that world, right? I came out of that world and started doing this. And it's still like obviously, you know, one fit in, but not really when I first started it, it wasn't one fit in. It was me having to like build up this thing from the ground after having left the music industry to go and get better and then just kind of starting again. And

I was like, you know, in the early days of the of doing this, like applying for grants. No, would I don't fit into a grant box because I'm not a PhD, I'm not a doctor, I'm not, you know, X, Y, and Z, I don't have the accolades, and I'm not attached to an institution. So I don't fit into that world of grants. And then over on this side, I don't um fit over into arts council because I'm doing something that's kind of based on health. So they won't touch it. So I was

just like in this no man's land, right? For a really, really, really long time of just like I don't know how to do that. Like I don't know how to I'm not sure how to do this basically. And then when it got to last year and I put my book out

That's when things started to change, and I was getting approached way more. And I was also putting loads of different types of content up on Instagram as well, which was more based around I was doing lots of videos before, and this time I wasn't. I was actually doing a lot of writing, and I was writing about studies, and people were really engaging with it, they were getting shared loads, and I was just like, Okay, cool. People are really interested in the research. That's what they that's what they're interested in. I can tell them theory all day long, and I can tell them applied research all day long. They actually want to read.

The studies. So me even changing the way in which I was engaging with my audience was really helpful because I could then go, okay, cool. Let me just try and work out from now if I'm getting all of this engagement how to do the right partnerships where we're at now. And that's when I started to dip back into the music industry and do these partnerships within music and really position us more in music than anything else. and that

was essential. That was literally essential. Um it allowed me to get the the study off the ground. Like, you know, that's pilot. That's that's not finished. It's we've got way more to do. But um and we just did Boomtown actually as part of this ongoing project. But like there's so much more to do. There's so much more to do. And the issue is the fact that rave culture, electronic music as a genre

The first thing that people associate it with is drugs and alcohol. That is it. It's I say it all the time. I said it yesterday. It's got the worst PR in the world. It just does as a genre. You don't get any other genre. If you go and you want to go to see Ariana Grande, you don't go some, you don't have anyone going, so are you gonna drink a bottle of rose? That's that's not a thing. That is not

Chris (21:54)

Even though there's

tons of mums there that'll be doing just that.

Emma (21:57)

Well that's my point. That's the thing. It's like the audience in the demographic that are going to see Ari Ariana Grande are the likely ones that are going to go and back a bottle of wine, which is fine. Enjoy yourself. But that's not what I ask, is it? That's nothing to do with your musical experience. Whereas rave culture, and like we say, we don't need to get into all of that because we know it exists and it's been talked about to death, but

At the same time, this other side of things is happening. Um, and that's why I was seeing loads of DJs go sober because that lifestyle isn't sustainable of just getting off your nut week in, week out. and we're also seeing people come back to more of a balance with it, and that's really important as well. Um, but there's this whole other side going on that is really, really good for mind and body. And what I was also really not interested in.

was this separation that you find in wellness spaces. So wellness spaces have got, you know, ecstatic dance, for example. And I I went to a few and I was just like, I just don't get it. I just this is just I don't get it. I don't get why we're separating, raving and in this. And it just wasn't a space for me personally that I felt comfortable in or was interested in. There's loads of people that love that. But for me, I was like, I don't understand the separation. It just in my head.

Chris (23:12)

Well if raving

isn't ecstatic dance, I don't know what is.

Emma (23:14)

Exactly. That was all I could ever think. It's like, well, I'm having to do this in some, you know, hall. Why not do it with a sound system?

Chris (23:21)

facilitates it. Yeah.

Emma (23:23)

I don't understand. So I just couldn't get my head round that factor. And I just also more to the point, I just didn't like the separation of it. I just found I found it elitist actually. And I found it very like, you know, one's better than the other. And it's like, I don't think it is. I think that it we we've just got terrible PR around rave culture. That's it.

So yeah, there's there's so much to be done in regards to undoing these narratives and the harm that these narratives are are causing people in relation to not actually going and getting this like very cheap, sustainable, easy medicine that they can do week in, week out if they want, you know?

Chris (24:03)

Yeah, super cheap, particularly if you do it sober. It's incredibly

Emma (24:06)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (24:07)

cheap. Okay, so let's get into the heart of it because I think I've told this story once before, but this is a story that actually I tell regularly to my clients because I think what happens with a lot of men, unfortunately, is that the suppression, the emotional suppression doesn't just mean that we suppress the difficult, painful emotions. It means we also suppress

expressions of joy, except for kind of like really angry expressions of joy, like scoring a goal in the last minute for your football team, right? Those are like the acceptable expressions. So I was in Ibiza some years ago on a stag do and we turned up to some beach bar and totally unexpectedly Pete Tong was playing, right? Now for those of us for a certain vintage, Pete Tong playing is...

Fucking awesome. Like, great, I've never seen him play before and he was like one of the OGs from back in the day. Fantastic. So me and my mates, we're on the dance floor, we're dancing to Pete Tongue. I look around because I can't help it because of the work that I do and I take stock of what's happening and there's probably about 10 blokes on the dance floor. There's probably about 40 women dancing.

Emma (25:20)

Sure.

Chris (25:20)

And then around the edge of the dance floor are a load of men, stood, posturing.

Right? Literally in my eyes, specifically trying to look like they're not having fun because

Emma (25:33)

Yeah.

Chris (25:34)

they're so fearful of being seen to express joy. Right? And so I guess what I want you to do is I want you to sales pitch to those men. Right?

Emma (25:43)

Uh yeah.

Chris (25:45)

Like what is it that they're missing out on? Because I know from a personal like somatic, holistic, I don't like that word, but like I know what it feels like.

to have done a, like my friend Zeria just played a two hour disco house set on a floating stage in Poland. And I was basically a hype man for two hours and I walked out of there and it was like I'd lost 30 kilos of weight, right? No, I hadn't, I'm still overweight, but I hadn't actually, but it felt like it, right? So, like physiologically and psychologically even, what is it that we're starting to understand that is happening in those experiences that so many men are missing out on?

Emma (26:26)

Well, there's multiple things happening at once. So let's kind of break it down one by one. So from a stress perspective, which is obviously my kind of area of study, um,

Chris (26:35)

Yes.

Emma (26:36)

everyone has ever I get asked this actually quite a lot, like what's the what's the ultimate like number for a good strong nervous system, for example? It's like there's no such thing. Everyone's so different, right? So your HR V and my HR V are gonna be completely different, but it doesn't mean that yours is unhealthy or or low or high whatever.

Chris (26:54)

What's HRV?

Emma (26:56)

heart rate variability. So that is a monitor of the nervous system, basically, of how quickly it recovers from stress. So you

Chris (27:04)

Okay.

Emma (27:05)

understand HRV through um your heartbeat. It's the it's not your actual heartbeat on the beat, it's the time in between. So

what you're looking at when you're monitoring it. It's like if you wear one of those whoop watches, it'll or like aura rings or whatever, you can look at your HRV. That will tell you how stressed or not stressed you are. Um the point is with HRV though, is it's about

the return. It's about how quickly you recover from stress. And by recover, I don't mean like having to go on like a all-inclusive holiday for ten days. I'm talking in the moment. How quickly do you go up and then how quickly do you come back down? And how quickly does that loop close? Because if you're not closing the loop, then

You're moving into what we call chronic stress, and chronic stress is where illness and and you know issues start to arise. And then on top of that, obviously you've got traumatic stress. So there's, you know, the different kinds of levels, acute, chronic trauma, as well as good stress. You've got e-stress, which is good stress. And I think that these men are probably in a position where they're feeling eustress. So if you're um able to understand that if you feel uncomfortable, right, which is gonna stress you out.

The one thing that is gonna help you to build resilience and literally train your nervous system to be better at stress is moving into the discomfort in a safe environment.

What is a safe environment? A dance floor. It's literally the safest environment. Nothing bad is going to happen if you move into that discomfort. It's going to actually help you to release the stress that you feel around that situation because it's all in your head. It's not actually stressful. It's actually not stressful at all. So that's one thing is the fact that music, in its essence, in its kind of totality, when you start to allow yourself to move to it, it will literally regulate your nervous system. And I think that that term is thrown around.

A lot and people don't really understand what that means. Nervous system regulation is about how quickly you recover from your body going into a stress response. It's that simple. then you've got rhythmic entrainment and how that works with your brain waves and also your heart rate. Um, so rhythmic entrainment is where you, your body, your system, so your brain waves, for example, or even your heartbeat will um match external rhythms.

And the likelihood is that you will also have that experience at the same time as someone else on the dance floor, which therefore means that you are feeling, you know, connected and happy and like wanting to specialize, yeah, in sync with someone else.

Chris (29:34)

in sync. Yeah.

Emma (29:37)

Um, that releases oxytocin. Oxytocin is the bonding hormone. The bonding hormone is released when we are not stressed and when we're happy and when we're feeling, you know, um, some level of

well just connection is the it's it's connection at at the fundamental kind of root of it all. Um and that mitigates loneliness it mitigates um any feelings of yeah just like not belonging which is a a huge issue especially for men I think and

Chris (30:06)

for sure.

Emma (30:07)

so what we essentially want to do on a dance floor is allow yourself to go into the most natural movement that you can find.

To allow that process to start and happen, right? Then you've got the sensory motor loop. The sensory motor loop is um where your senses are dictating what's happening in your external environment. And then the motor loop is the movement output. So you have senses in, which is auditory stimulus and also what you're seeing. And then you have a movement output to that. If you stop that loop from happening, it also stops things like emotional processing.

Um so instead of allowing your body to go into this very natural loop, it's also what um has been detailed in uh one study in particular, the groove, you know, when we get into the groove, we get into flow state, that's

Chris (30:58)

Hmm

Emma (30:59)

everything feels very effortless and you're not even you're just not thinking. Your body's just literally doing its thing and moving. Yeah, literally. Literally,

Chris (31:04)

No, the robot's taken over at that point and your body's just moving without thinking. Yeah.

Emma (31:09)

that's the groove, right?

and I mean in in ancient traditions, it's called trance dance. That's what it is. That's that's what that specific thing is. Um, and when you're in the sensory motor loop, that is literally when, yeah, your conscious and your subconscious mind bridge, it's where you process um through you know the limbic system. It's where the, like you said, the weight starts to drop off. The emotion starts to drop off because you're not in the cognitive brain anymore, you're not thinking.

About, look like an idiot, or I've got to do my taxes. You're just not there. So when you're not there and you're completely present, which we know in any therapy, in any any form of therapeutic modality or any spiritual teaching, one of the main goals of that is to find the present moment. Because in the present moment you can feel somewhat safe. And that's kind of what's happening on the dance floor as you're going through this immediate process.

your brain is kind of locking you into this rhythm that is keeping the focus because of the way in which the beat is in training to your brain, you've got something to latch onto, that creates safety. In turn that creates some movement output. And then therefore you're in the present moment, you're in flow state. And then if you're not allowing yourself to go there, then you're mi missing out on really easy regulation and healing. It's kind of that simple.

Chris (32:32)

Mmm. Yeah, and I think easy I understand what you mean very difficult for a lot of men in particular not just men of course But I think men in particular who have grown up in an environment where emotional expression has not been encouraged

Emma (32:47)

Absolutely, absolutely. There's like the the foundation of British values, like you know, don't cry, men don't cry, stiff upper lip, etc.

The expression of joy is also really, you know, important. That's why like there's certain cultures around the world where like dance uh for you know, weddings, even like just anywhere. There's like expressions of joy through dance and and music. and if you look at communities and cultures that just don't have this issue, Brazil, perfect example.

You know, Brazil is a really, really good example of men being able to just, you know, express themselves through dance and music. It's it's ev everywhere. and they are therefore much more able and inclined to fill the entirety of the human experience. I don't believe that in this country that is something that is understood or taught. I think we're getting better at it, um, but I think that there's still a lot of work to be done around the fact that, you know, if you're angry, that's fine. Don't

punch someone, go and channel it, go and figure out where to put it. Yeah, anger's normal. It's completely normal.

Chris (33:51)

No, but it's okay to be angry. Yeah, get yourself in a mosh pit.

Emma (33:58)

Yeah. Literally. Literally get yourself in a mosh pit.

Chris (34:00)

Go and listen to some heavy metal.

Emma (34:02)

Yeah. Be physical. Like or go and play go and play contact sport.

You know, go and channel your anger. Anger's a completely normal emotion. So is grief. Grief, completely normal emotion. Everyone's gonna go through it at some point in their life. So why are we suppressing grief to, for example, a church service where everyone sat down, still wearing black, having to listen to eulogies? Some people might start crying. You know, there's no expression there whatsoever. If you have, however, been to like a Jamaican funeral.

This is a whole different thing altogether. The tunes are playing from day dot. They're the the the the whole thing is based on you know a celebration of life. My friend went to a Jamaican funeral recently and she was like, it's like a rave. And it's like that's the thing, is that there are cultures around the world who are we like as British, you know, values go, we're not

We're not superior in any way, shape, or form. We're actually completely inferior because we have no idea or understanding about how to deal and feel with the complexity of the human experience from an emotional standpoint. And it doesn't mean that we need to be run by our emotions, but it just means that we need to understand how to feel them and move them.

Chris (35:22)

Yeah, and you mentioned it before and obviously what happened in kind of traditional British Isles culture for what it's worth, know, paganism. We've actually lost a lot of that because Christianity

Emma (35:32)

Yeah, we'll say.

Chris (35:33)

came and it said everything has to be proper and that's just actually not the best way for us to process stuff. yeah, I mean, I totally agree with that. I'm curious, I want to ask you about your drumsheds research as well, but I'm curious when you're bringing this work into space with people.

Do you see a gender difference in terms of how men and women engage with?

Emma (35:54)

Um, at first, yes. When I first was like talking about it in regards to movement, I thought tooth and nail to keep it out of wellness. At first it was getting like my work in general was getting really, really, really boxed into wellness and I was not okay with that. Um, because I didn't feel like the work that I was doing was wellness. It's health and well-being, yeah. But wellness as an

Chris (36:18)

Sure.

Emma (36:18)

industry is based on a lot of

You know, just a lot people saying a lot of stuff that's just not true and then not based on any facts and not not based on any research. And so for me, I also feel like the wellness space is a very female heavy space. So it was bringing in only women at first. And I was like, Well, this isn't right. This doesn't make sense to me.

Because the rave scene is not this. So if the rave scene isn't this, then I'm doing something wrong. And so like I banned certain words from our marketing, you know, wellness was banned from our marketing. Um, exactly, dance was absolutely banned from our marketing. There were certain things that were banned. No one could use them for a specific reason because I was like, it's creating too much of a gender gap. Um, when men absolutely need to access this. When I then also started changing the narratives around how we were talking about stuff, I changed it from movement and dance.

I changed I just stopped talking about dance is a long short of it. I changed it to electronic music. And then the byproduct of electronic music is movement and dance. That's the byproduct of it, but it's not the first kind of yeah, the the the top line. Um and so when yeah, when I changed it from that to talking about the music, that's when the men came.

Chris (37:35)

Yeah, and when they did come and start to enter the space, I'm guessing perhaps once they've taken that, because it's courage, right? We talk here a lot about the courage it takes for men to come into a space like yours, right?

Emma (37:49)

Yeah.

Chris (37:50)

And a space like mine, like for sure, a therapy space, like geez, you know, I say that to them, like, well done for making it here. You know, that's kind of the biggest hurdle. uh It's not really, but you know, we get to the

Emma (38:01)

Yeah.

Chris (38:01)

difficult stuff later. uh

But once they're through the doors and once they're there, I'm thinking again of those guys stood around the dance floor in Ibiza and you were saying, actually on that dance floor is the safest possible space for them to start to express themselves physically because everybody else is already doing it, right?

Emma (38:18)

Yeah, they've got join in.

Chris (38:20)

So, yes, so exactly. So how do you then coax the men in who are perhaps a little rigid? My wife will talk about how many men she sees who literally don't know how to move their hips.

You know,

Emma (38:31)

Yeah.

Chris (38:31)

the whole body sways back and forward, but the hips don't move. And it's like, yeah, but how can you have moved your hip? I've seen your dancing on Instagram. Your hips move great.

Emma (38:39)

No, it's so funny. I literally had this

conversation with my friend the other day. We were dancing, he was dancing with his shoulders and I was like, What are you doing? I was like, I know you I know you're not that

Chris (38:46)

Right, yes. Your whole body

needs to move, yeah. But we have to start somewhere, remember, right? Like, know,

Emma (38:52)

I know.

Chris (38:54)

my hips move fine now, but I don't think they used to. I was all just arms, right? Yeah,

Emma (38:57)

No, no one does. No. It's practice.

Chris (39:01)

yeah, go on. So how do you start to tempt men in to say, try something new, try moving your body in this way, and it's not choreographed, it's free movement.

Emma (39:11)

Yeah, I think that also just moving, you know, away from you've got to move your whole body, you don't. You don't actually have to move your whole body at all. But I also think that if you bring it back to the um

If you bring it back to the focus, and this is really the somatic side of things, right? Because the somatic work is based on like sensations of how does your body feel? Where does it where do you feel, X, Y, and Z, right?

If you and if you give men the education or anyone, the education into understanding that you can absolutely do somatic work on yourself on the dance floor, because what you start to understand is, I feel a bit stiff there. Oh, my my hip is is quite tight. okay, what do I need to do to loosen that up then? You're just creating body awareness. That's all it is. Um and I think that all that takes is is just education. There's no other way to go about it. Um if you are able to absorb and understand.

That when you're on the dance floor, your most natural way of being is moving however you want. And you

Chris (40:15)

Yes.

Emma (40:15)

suppressing that is actually going against your natural order. If that's how you can teach it to people, that's when they start to change their behavior and start to change the way in which they are, em you know, gravitating towards something that.

At first might make them feel a bit uncomfortable, and that's why people take drugs and you know, alcohol and what to loosen themselves up. I hear that all the time, especially from men. The reason I want to drink or the reason I take a pill is because I just want to loosen up myself up a little bit. Um, but

Chris (40:47)

Absolutely.

Emma (40:48)

the fundamental factor is the only reason that you feel that way is because your ego, and that's not in a derogatory way, but it's like your ego, your your belief systems are running the show. And if you're able to basically um

you know, counteract the ego and go, no, I'm gonna do it anyway. That's where you start to find the freedom. I mean, I mean, I'm somebody who has, you know, danced around on the internet for the last six years. You don't think that people have said stuff to me? Like I'm a woman

Chris (41:18)

Yeah.

Emma (41:18)

and I've had people say all sorts of stuff to me about

Chris (41:22)

Yeah, I'm sure.

Emma (41:23)

dancing around and being free in my expression and all the rest of it. And when I first started it, it's funny actually, you're the first person I'm gonna say this to you. So two years ago I broke my arm.

And it was a really bad break. and

I dance a lot with my hands, right? I can't dance with this wrist anymore. It's it's

Chris (41:41)

Mmm.

Emma (41:41)

it's uh because of the surgery. I've got to go have another surgery actually. Um because I've just found out that they did it wrong. So that's fun.

Chris (41:49)

shit.

Emma (41:50)

but because of that, it's changed the way I move. It's changed the way I dance. It's changed the way in which I feel balanced, it's changed the way in which I'm able to use both hands. And so therefore when I watch myself now, I don't feel like I'm moving properly, basically, is long and short of it.

versus two years ago before I did this. And that is something that I'm like conscious of when I'm moving. And I still every day just try and do this practice of just like moving my arms. It won't ever be the same as this one anymore because of the way in which it's been Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (42:22)

I have a broken hump and they don't bend the same so I get

it.

Emma (42:26)

It's just it's changed my my dynamics, right? But I am now hyper aware of that. And then therefore, I'm hyper aware of like, yeah, how lacking in fluid that I feel like this this hand has. Um and even just those subtle, like, you know, understandings of changes in your body and how your body feels is helpful. Cause it's not then for me to go, I need to go and fix something. I don't need to fix anything. I just but I can change the way in which therefore I'm using this hand and the way in which I'm moving it.

Chris (42:53)

Yeah, and what I would say on top of that is also part of the work there is in the acceptance of I can't move how I used to. You know, I'm nearly 40 now. I can't move how I could when I was 25. I'm never going to be able to. That's part of the acceptance too.

Emma (43:09)

Yeah, you just evolve, you just change, bodies change, things change. And I think that like that's the thing about for me anyway, what this is something I'm very clear on is like going, you know, doing this work and going out raving saved me from everything that's happened. It just it just did. It just has done over and over and over again. and the the the difference in me now and my body now

I can't really do a lot of well any high intensity exercise. It's too much for me. My body just crashes out. So I can do, however, 12 hours on a dance floor.

sober. So if I'm gonna pick my things, my things are gonna work for my body where it's at now. I used to be a professional footballer. I used to play sport to a really high level. I used to be

Chris (44:04)

Wow, okay.

Emma (44:05)

Yeah, I used to be a cross country champion. I used to be an athletics champion. I was

sporty spice of North London, like for real. And I can't do any of that now. I can't I can't run 5K. I can't do HIT classes. I can't do anything that like really gets me out of breath. It just takes way too long for me to recover. However, I can dance for as long as I need to dance. I can swim. I can go on walks. Those and and I can do Pilates, for example. Those are the things I can do, right? So

Coming into this like form of understanding as well, with the dance floor in particular, you're also getting a physical workout out of it. And I think that's really important as well for men, in regards to your stepping, you're constantly stepping on the dance floor. So if you also need forget your mental health for a second, if you need a workout, get on the dance floor. Um, and like

Chris (44:54)

Yeah.

Emma (44:54)

get your cardio in. Like it's kind of that simple.

Chris (44:58)

Well, regular listeners will know, I don't talk about the concept of toxic masculinity. And I won't go into it now, but I just don't think it's helpful. But something that I've been talking about for over a decade now is this idea of rigid masculinity. And actually what you're talking about here is a lot of the traditional male ways of moving our bodies would be uh running, uh sports, lifting heavy weights.

It's all very straight line and rigid, right?

Emma (45:28)

Yeah.

Chris (45:29)

And actually something that my wife said, um Mystic Creatures in Poland, which to be fair was like a millennial playground, like nobody had their phones out. It's like, it's come out of the Berlin dance scene. like, you know, it's all very, it's very mature raving. But what she said was, is you look around here and you can see a lot of healthy expressions of masculinity, right? You have a lot of.

very attractive like m souls, let's call them, who are expressing themselves in fun clothes, but also are helping each other out. There is that sense of camaraderie and collective uh joy and excitement and also that freedom to move. And so to me, it really feels like this movement that you're talking about, the electronic movement and any kind of dance, but again, dance has uh feminine connotations. So I understand why you don't use that terminology.

Any kind of movement like this actually is a way to kind of blast through that shame that has been put into you as a man, that it's not your fault that you feel it, right? This shame that those men must have felt on the edge of that dance floor to dare to go and express to this music, which clearly they were enjoying. And I

Emma (46:42)

Yeah.

Chris (46:42)

just, I really think you're onto something here. And I really...

really hope that we can find more ways to get more men to move their bodies in non-conventional ways. Because we're trying to get men to speak in non-conventional ways about how they feel and actually if we can get them to move their bodies likewise they're kind of going to help each other they're like they're going to feed each other in a way.

Emma (47:07)

Yeah, I think that Raven is is the cure for this though, by the way. Because it's already happening, you know, there there are men on dance floors who are allowing themselves to just move and vibe. Like, even a friend of mine, he literally built a whole TikTok of him just vibing in his living room to house music, basically. And

Now, you know, and he's like a big guy, big masculine guy, whatever you want to call it. Like he is just having a good time to music. because I think a lot of those pages can sometimes be very, you know, female women heavy. Um, but yeah, he he's he's kind of got his own little vibe going on. and he gets now opportunities because of it, you know, to go to festivals or go to raves or go to wherever. And I think that like

That's really all people r care about, actually, is just people having a good time. And there are certain um festivals, events, raves that I think really align with that as well, by the way. And I think that some are geared towards more the younger generation. The younger generation I think are worse at expressing themselves. I think that they had a a I really, really, really do believe it's because of COVID. Like I'm really sure of that. I feel like

Chris (48:29)

absolutely,

yeah.

Emma (48:30)

Yeah, they completely missed out on this really fundamental rite of passage of just going out and not giving a shit about what you look like and then being adopted by the older generation. You know, I went out when I was 18 and I was adopted by people that were 10 years older than me. And I would just be going out with them week in, week out. They introduced me to house raves. I was very much in like grime garage, drum and bass jungle.

Chris (48:55)

All good.

Emma (48:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that was kind of where I started out. And then I was introduced to House Raves later by this older older lot. And there was like I d I met them at Raves. I didn't know who they were. I, you know, we just became like family. You don't question anything. and I feel like the younger generation, because of COVID, did not have this experience. They are like like like not friendly with the older like with anyone actually that is older than them at Raves. Like I've had experiences at Raves where

I don't know, like this girl left her phone on the bar and I went and took it to her and she just took it out of my hand and walked off. And I was like, Okay. Yeah, do you know?

Chris (49:35)

You're welcome. Yeah.

Emma (49:37)

Like just stuff like that. uh and but I do think it was this like really key component of like missing developmental aspects, right? Um so I but then there's also the phone thing and people don't want to be filmed and they don't want to be filmed dancing and blah blah blah blah because the internet.

Chris (49:52)

Yeah, social media is not

helping.

Emma (49:54)

No,

definitely not. And so there's a few factors as to why I think that this is like, you know, a an issue. But at the same time, I do believe that the rave scene is a cure for men being able to have spaces to just go and it's even if they're DJing, by the way. Like men being able to stand uh like behind some decks, it's like a little safe space.

Make people dance and you can dance too. That's it. That's all it should be. And I I'm just, yeah, I'm quite like I've seen it enough now. I've seen it enough times over um to know that it works. And it works for so many reasons that are beyond hedonism. Um and it's just about getting people to understand what those what those reasons are, you know, and it's the love of the music and it's the movement output.

That's the key.

Chris (50:53)

And you know what I will say to that is that even if sometimes it is just for the hedonism as a bit of escapism, that's also beneficial. It's

Emma (51:00)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Chris (51:02)

much more beneficial than sitting on your phone at home on your own

Emma (51:05)

Definitely.

Chris (51:06)

and not being around people. Because to me, one of the greatest experiences I have on a dance floor is dancing. And then you lock eyes with somebody ah who's 10 meters away. I'm six foot three, so it's easier for me, right? You

Emma (51:19)

Yeah.

Chris (51:20)

lock eyes with another person.

and you both just grin at each other and you have this moment of connection and it means that for, you know, the last four days I've been at this festival, I've never felt less lonely in my whole life because I can sit down and I did do many times. I sat down and I'm like, hey, random person, let's have a conversation for 20 minutes knowing that we'll never see each other ever again and that's cool, you know?

Emma (51:44)

eh And that's that is uh

The beautiful part of rave culture and festival culture is that right there. It's those little moments. And the thing with the dance floor, I love this because the dance floor um allows us to activate something called mirror neurons. So your mirror neurons are the developmental neurons basically. Um, from when you're a baby, like you the way in which babies learn certain things is by copying. So when they're like learning speech and learning how you know to smile, even they're looking at your face. Um and so it's it's this like very core component of.

Like what it is to be a human that's built into us. These neurons are really important. And so what you're saying is that when you clock somebody across the dance floor, that's the those are the neurons that activate you. That's why you end up like syncing up with somebody when you're dancing. And then you like copy each other without realizing it. It's part of our like how we bond basically, um, and how we form new connections. And that's why it feels so good when you do it. And it's like then you don't even have to speak to them. You don't have to say any words, you don't have to exchange.

Any names, it's just we have this moment and then you keep it moving. And that is um part of our biological like makeup. It's really important that we have that.

Chris (52:54)

Yeah, there's a few things I wanna ask before I close, but I just had a thought here that it would be remiss of me to not mention at this point, my friend Shannon, who is a professional dancer. And when I met them, I met them just before we went to a dance floor and I watched them on an empty dance floor start to move. And I just remember thinking to myself, I didn't know a human body could move like that. And

Emma (53:18)

Yeah.

Chris (53:19)

about two hours later, I was moving my body like that.

Emma (53:23)

Yeah.

Chris (53:23)

and the freedom that that gives me to know that first of all I can do that and I'm a lumbering six foot three oaf and they're like

Emma (53:32)

Yeah.

Chris (53:33)

four foot ten tiny dancer but to

Emma (53:35)

Yeah.

Chris (53:36)

say obviously I'm not looking as graceful as Shannon and I never will but it doesn't

Emma (53:39)

Yeah.

Chris (53:40)

matter and if we can get over that because this is my next question to you which is basically for the man who's listening to this and is thinking well this all sounds really interesting but there's absolutely no fucking chance I'm ever going to

movement class or go into a rave scares the shit out of me, which I understand if you've grown up a much more kind of small-c conservative traditional lifestyle,

Emma (54:02)

Mm.

Chris (54:03)

where would you tell them to go and start? Where would you say go and dip your toe in here? Or what would you advise listening to? Stick some chicane on which is nice and soft to begin with or you know don't start with some hardcore techno or drum and bass. What would your advice be? Where to start?

Emma (54:22)

In your kitchen, do it home. Um,

Chris (54:25)

Okay.

Emma (54:26)

you don't have to do it with other people. That's the thing, that's the beauty of it. If you want to like build up your confidence about dancing to music, do it when no one's watching. That's the key. Um, and so dance around your home, just put tunes on, let your body move. Um, I also always say that I don't think that there's a universal genre, I don't think there's a universal, you know, sound. However

I'm a big advocate for house music, in the essence of it's usually double your resting heart rate, usually. say like between like 115, 120, you know, up to 125, maybe that kind of bracket, right? And you can get some really nice, like deep house, for example. It's nothing that's too overstimulating. It's got really, really simple drum loops, it's really easy to follow. Um, and it's just a vibe. And that's the kind of like stuff that is really good to walk to or step to. And I think that when you're stepping in confidence, that's the key here. It's all about confidence.

this. So when you're stepping in confidence, when you're stepping in time and you found your rhythm, that's when the magic happens. So yeah, just do it around your house. Just put put some music on around your house and allow yourself to step to the beat. Once you've got that down, you can do anything. Literally just do a two-step.

Chris (55:33)

Yeah, okay, so to those that are listening that want to dare to do this, I'm gonna put in the show notes, I'm gonna put my friend, Simona, who plays down tempo, which might be a good starter, because it's a bit slower, and my friend Zeria, who plays

Emma (55:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris (55:48)

disco house, so you'll recognize some of the tunes that she's playing, but she puts a house beat over them. So I'm gonna put those in the show notes so you can have a go. One more question before I get to the final one.

What surprised you the most about your research? Like what did you go in perhaps assuming would be the case that hasn't been or vice versa?

Emma (56:10)

So far nothing yet, to be honest. Yeah. So far, nothing yet.

Chris (56:12)

Okay, so you've been confirmed in all of your biases.

Emma (56:16)

Yeah. At at the moment, yes. There will be stuff. Do not get me I'm not saying this from like a ego perspective whatsoever, but I essentially did six years of research and development to do a study. So by the time I got to the actual study, I had seen it happen so many times over.

um of like when certain changes happened and like you know people's jaws stop clenching and the smile comes on their face and they just look more relaxed. So I was quite confident in my hypothesis and my timings and I was correct. however

Yeah, there will be stuff moving forward that will completely surprise me. and I want to do a lot more research into specific genres and comparisons between specific genres. Um, I want to do a lot more research into neurodivergence. I want to do a lot more research into what

variables we need to put in place in actual club spaces. So if you just stick a load of people in the on the dance floor and make them dance without any substances, what is the comparison between that and doing some like warm-up exercises basically? Um and do the warm up

Chris (57:31)

Yeah, okay.

Emma (57:32)

size's help. I think they would personally. I think they're gonna help way more than just sticking people on the dance floor to dance because of the reasons we've just spoken about. It will break down the the uh anxiety. and so yeah those there's certain things that I wanna, you know, explore more.

And there will be certain things in it that surprise me a lot. I think that the one the one that I'm really intrigued by is the differences in music genre because I'm really interested to know because we've all got bias. We've all got bias. Like there's certain music genres I hate. I'm just like, it's not for me. but that doesn't mean it's not good for you. Do you see my point? So that's what I There you go.

Chris (58:08)

Yeah, yeah, I can't listen to industrial techno because I grew up in Manchester

and yet my wife, she left the disco house set to go and listen to some industrial techno and we came back together delighted with our choices, you know? Like that's, and that's how it is.

Emma (58:19)

Yeah. Yeah. There you go. And that's the thing, it's like

that there's something that is in your wife's, you know, system.

That she needed that sound or that tempo or whatever. There's something in your system that's the opposite, but it both of them are doing the same thing or something similar. And that's what I'm

Chris (58:34)

Yes.

Emma (58:34)

really interested in. And that's where the subjective experience comes in. I'm also really interested in, I do believe, yeah, that there is some sort of like universal drum loop. Um, it might change slightly, but it will be between a certain like BPM and a certain tempo that without any other production, just that drum loop, what is the one that is

the most beneficial across all as many different types of people as possible from a demograph demographic perspective.

Chris (59:02)

Okay, nice. And this research that you're doing, I know you've been doing it at Drum Sheds, which is a hell of a place to do it. 10,000 people in an old abandoned Ikea. Like what is it that you're actually looking for? Like what is it that

Emma (59:15)

I

Chris (59:16)

you're, the kind of, the knob of what you're studying?

Emma (59:20)

Well, there's the it's stress. It's how how does electronic music have a good or bad uh relationship

Chris (59:24)

Okay. Relationship, yeah.

Emma (59:27)

with stress, basically? and drumsheds, so we're not doing it on the entire retire of drumsheds, that would be impossible. Um it's too it's too big, it's too many people. So what we have is we've got a really nice partnership with Broadwick Live, who uh own drumsheds, and they have given us um one of the rooms.

Excuse me. They've given us one of the rooms. Um, and one of the rooms is to be used as a controlled study. Um, so that's the key. It's like we have to have it as a controlled study. Um

Chris (59:58)

Yeah, OK.

Emma (59:59)

So that way we can make sure that no one's on drugs, no one's on alcohol, et cetera. and then we strap people up to heart rate monitors. That's where we were measuring HR V responses. And then we'd also get people to do um self reporting. But I wanna also bring in EEG, so that is monitoring the brain. So there's that's

Chris (1:00:17)

Wow.

Emma (1:00:17)

we're gonna bring in, yeah.

Chris (1:00:19)

Okay, cool. Well, I look forward to hearing that when it's done. um Thank

Emma (1:00:23)

Okay.

Chris (1:00:23)

you for doing what you do. I'll reiterate what I said at the start. I think you might have my dream job that I didn't know existed. I love, I was thinking about this this weekend. I love, I'm so proud of our generation for realizing that the corporate world isn't really for a lot of us and just making up our own shit. I think it's great what you're doing. Obviously I'm a fan. If people wanna, no, sorry, I forgot.

I forgot the killer question. This is the start of season two. We've been off for a while. So I'm gonna give you unlimited funds, right? I'm gonna give you the keys to the vault. With

Emma (1:00:54)

Yeah.

Chris (1:00:54)

that, you can do whatever you want, except you can't just do more Music is Movement because that's cheating, right? Because you can't just do more of your own business. What are you gonna do that is gonna have the biggest impact in the way that you would like it to and what impact is it gonna have?

Emma (1:01:12)

Um well uh I'm actually raising three million pounds at the minute for investment um to build out everything into a platform so that we have all resources, all research and music in one contained space. So I'd use it for that because I need it.

Chris (1:01:30)

Okay, so

not specifically the music as movement, but actually to bring together all of the understanding and learning of the benefits of electronic music into one space.

Emma (1:01:40)

Everything, everything that we research, everything that is important under the umbrella, and then how that then impacts different industries and environments. Yeah, and then how more to the point, how is it how is it then used in different industries and environments?

Chris (1:01:53)

Well, great, because that potentially is going to impact the PR problem that electronic music has. oh

Emma (1:01:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Chris (1:01:59)

great. Well, then I'll support that and I'll give the money to that. Great.

Emma (1:02:03)

Have it.

Chris (1:02:03)

If people want to find you because you're very big on Instagram, unsurprisingly, where do people go? Where would you like them to come and find the work that you're doing? I know you have a website too.

Emma (1:02:13)

Yeah, um so it's I H Q Mem HQ stands for music and movement is medicine dot co dot uk and then my personal page is just Emma Marshall I and then I post up, I don't know, all sorts of random stuff to be honest, up there. But yeah

Chris (1:02:31)

You do, it's great.

Emma (1:02:32)

Yeah, I post up a lot about music and research and yeah, that kind of stuff.

Chris (1:02:35)

Yeah.

And then at certain times of the summer, we can see you dancing on there too, which is always nice. Yeah.

Emma (1:02:40)

Yeah, exactly. When I feel like I'm inspired, yeah.

Chris (1:02:44)

Great. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us, Emma. I've really appreciated it. And I feel like this is one of those conversations that I could have gone for hours and hours and hours, but trying to be kind to my audience and just keep it to one hour.

Emma (1:02:54)

Yeah.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Chris (1:02:56)

All right, bye bye.