Chris (00:00)
Welcome to season two of No Man's an Island, a podcast power divide men's therapy hub, a directory of male therapists for male clients. And it's great to be back after our summer break where we successfully achieved zero social media posting and zero podcast episodes recorded. We've got some exciting things on the way. our new website has just launched. we have moved to men's therapyhub.com, and that's in preparation for launching in the US in the coming weeks. So we haven't been doing nothing over the summer.
Luke Alfano (00:13)
. .
Chris (00:28)
But we've been particularly taking a hiatus from social media, which has been great. To kick off season two, we're joined by Luke Alfano. He's the founder of Too Young to Grieve, a community supporting people dealing with bereavement at a young age. Reason I wanted to get Luke on for the first episode of season two is because we actually have a similar origin story, given that he lost his dad to cancer when he was just 21, and that experience inspired him to do the work he does now.
And I lost my dad from cancer when I was twenty-six. And how I responded to that was my catalyst for me going into men's work 13 years ago now. So I'm weirdly excited for Luke and I to compare notes and to discuss losing a parent too young, male grief, friendship, and what it actually means to live with Ross l live with Ross, what it actually means to live with loss rather than simply to move on from it. Hey Luke.
Luke Alfano (01:21)
What an introduction. Thank you so much for having me on Chris, I appreciate it. yeah, a pleasure to be here and can't wait to talk all things men's health, mental health and grief.
Chris (01:33)
Great. Well, we have a first question that we always ask guests, which is, how did you end up in this space? So I've kind of bit of a spoiler there, but take as much time as you want. Tell us about what happened to you. I know you've told this story many times. I've told mine many times too. Tell us about that story and and what led you to actually move into creating this community, Too Young to Grieve.
Luke Alfano (01:55)
Yeah, and what would say just on that, think you can never tell your story enough times. You never know who it's gonna reach, you know. It might find someone at the perfect time. And yeah, I think, you know, some people might think, people are gonna get bored of me talking about it. That's your person, that's your story. Talk about them as much as you like. But yeah, just to give you a bit of background on myself. So yeah, my story, so I lost my dad in my final year of university when I was 21 for the years since, so it'll be five years this September.
I did what lot of, I'd say a lot of men try and do and just keep busy, sort of avoid it and just crack on with life as you do. You know, it's a very tough experience, something that, you know, I'd never experienced before that. And it changed my life completely and has led me to where I am today, doing what I'm trying to do today. But yeah, like I said, for sort of, I'd say almost four years, I sort of neglected the grief, didn't wanna talk about it, didn't wanna address it and just tried to keep busy. So.
end of last year, my nonna, so my dad's mum passed away and that sort of cracked it all open again and it wasn't, if that didn't happen I don't think Too Young To Grieve would exist and I think maybe I might still be where I was a year ago and just ignoring it all. So yeah, I think a lot of times for a lot of people it's something has to happen for us to realise, okay, let's try and work on that and that was my thing that happened. So yeah, I guess that's where everything sort of started and...
I guess that's what's led me to where I am today.
Chris (03:24)
And obviously I want to talk about Too Young to Grieve because I think it's a a a brilliant organization that you're that you're running and I know it's already helping a lot of people. I'm really curious to hear more about your experience. So your dad died of cancer. tell us a little bit about that. So did you exp was was it was it quick? Was it was it you know, I I'm guessing it was expected. And then once he had died, or maybe even just around the time when you knew he was dying, because this is where my story came in. Like I
I was in denial just like he was in denial. I wonder what was going on for you around the time, just before he died and just after he died, in terms of how you felt like you quote, had to respond or you should respond because you were a male.
Luke Alfano (04:06)
Yeah, and so it was actually very unexpected. It was a quick turnaround from my dad finding out it was two weeks later that he sadly passed away. So it was a very quick experience. All
Chris (04:17)
Wow. Okay.
Luke Alfano (04:18)
happened, yeah, very quickly. Was about to start my final year, then that happened. So yeah, everything just happened overnight, like almost, well, two weeks. But yeah, it was very quick. So I didn't really have a clue what was going on and hence why when it happened.
I didn't really know what to do at the time. I didn't sort of have those things put in place or plan anything or ask my dad things that I potentially would have if he was in chemotherapy for a few months beforehand. So that was an added layer for me that I felt like I didn't have the opportunity to ask those things at all either. So that was another thing that at the time I was like, that was too quick. I didn't even get to ask you things that I would have probably asked if I did have the chance. Although I don't know if I would have, I might have been in a period where I just
would have wanted him to get better and try and do my best to help that rather than ask those questions. And then in response to your question around like how I felt I should have responded to grief, I think it was more that I don't think there's no way, no right way that anyone should respond to grief whether you're a woman or a man. I think I was just now looking back, I thought I knew everything about it, studying psychology at university.
I thought I knew what was going on upstairs. I thought I didn't really need to address it. I know that obviously why I'm doing certain things is because of grief. Okay, it will figure itself out over time. And I think that's, know, like for a lot of people that first year, I say, you know, you're just trying to get through each day. And I think that's what I was doing, whether it was going for a run, whether it was my dissertation. I think that was me just dealing with it in my own way at the time.
and I think everyone has their own ways of dealing with grief, especially that first one, two years when it's literally all consuming. So for me, I felt like that first year was just a blur. And then the years proceeding, I think I realised, okay, maybe I should talk to someone about this. Hence, after what happened at the end of last year, I started to do the work as well on that side of things and it massively helped me.
Chris (06:19)
If we were to go back and be like a fly on the wall and view Luke those all those years ago, just in the immediate aftermath of your dad's death, you know, like six months afterwards, what would we be seeing? Would would we would like would we be seeing somebody who on the surface was doing okay?
Luke Alfano (06:37)
Yeah, 100%. I literally put a post up the other day with pictures from that year. And if you look through those pictures, some smiling, I look okay. But there are certain pictures where you can kind of see that that person is not okay. From the eyes, from the face itself, it just didn't look like me, the me of today, let's say. And that was just the grief taking its toll. I was exhausted, I was tired, had brain fog, my body was aching.
from the fight or flight response that grief and trauma can cause, especially in that first year. And if you were to be a fly on the wall and see that person, you probably wouldn't recognize him to the person that is here today. And to me, I think that's what I try and show people is that that first year, that one, two could be even longer, however long it takes. Grief has no timeline. It takes you as long as it takes you and it's just one day at a time. But yeah, that first...
first year especially for me I was a completely different person. I was doing things, behaving in ways that I wouldn't behave today just to get through the day, just doing things to try and get through, just to keep myself busy, my mind off it. yeah, that person is just someone that I look back on and think that was just how you were dealing with grief and that's okay because it just takes up a lot of your life and you just have to get through it one day at a time, one moment at a time.
Chris (08:01)
Mm-hmm. And of course, the organization that you've started is too young to grieve. So it's focusing very specifically on young people experiencing loss and losing a parent. You know, I was 26 when my dad died, and and I had these thoughts of like, well, you know, he's seen plenty of my life. You know, he was 59 when he died. That's nothing. You know, I'm 39 now, and I think, God, I've only got 20 years left if that's what happened to my dad. And I think we can kid ourselves in the moment that
Things aren't as bad as they are. But then as we start to get a little bit older, we start to realize just how fucked up it is to lose somebody so close to you when you are so young. I mean, you your nonna died. and I've got an Italian mate, so I know that's your your your Italian grandma. but like my my grandma died two years ago, but she was like 90 odd, and you know, and and her her daughter, my mum, is was just turning 70. You know, what
26, 21 to lose a parent, it's not okay. Like we're not prepared for that. Like is is is that how you look back on that now? Like I I just remember thinking at the time, like I I was doing okay. And then obviously looking back, thinking, I was completely unprepared to deal with something so monumental in my life.
Luke Alfano (09:21)
100 % that's exactly why Too Young to Grieve exists. I think when you're navigating grief and loss in your 20s, even in your 30s, that is something that you shouldn't have to experience at an age like that. You shouldn't have to experience it at any point in life and grief is so tough no matter your age. But when you're in your 20s and 30s, you're navigating life milestones like careers, marriage, having kids, things that that parent should be there for.
And when they're not there, it's something that really throws you off and changes your life. And for me, and I'm sure for many people, it has completely changed me. It's changed my identity, who I thought I was. A lot of that was built with my dad. It's changed what I wanted to do with my life.
Chris (10:04)
Mm.
Luke Alfano (10:05)
I'm too young to grieve, like I said, probably wouldn't exist if I didn't experience this. And yeah, I think I completely agree. I was unprepared.
I it was unfair. I was angry a lot of the time at the start. You know, how has this happened to me? How has this happened at this age? I was the first person in my friendship group to experience it. a lot of the people around me as well didn't understand what I was experiencing. So I just showed up. Like I say, I just showed up, put a smile on my face and just tried to just be the Luke that was there before. But that Luke didn't exist after my dad passed away. And that is what I realized more recently that...
It really needs people around you who do get you as well. Your friends can be great supports and mine were, but they didn't understand what has actually happened and how monumental that can be for someone, especially at a younger age, know, 26, 21, 35, 39, 40, whatever it is, it's too young and you're not prepared for it, as you said. You're not because you don't learn about grief. No one ever tells you what to do when it happens, what's going to happen, the physical effects that I felt of grief.
My first ever panic attack, I always say this after experiencing grief, probably a week later. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know that this was probably because of my grief. And that's what I want to try
Chris (11:21)
Mm.
Luke Alfano (11:21)
and get across with Tiong to Grieve. I want people to understand that that is part of grief and you're not alone in that and you're understood by people.
Chris (11:28)
It's part of what I think is is so ridiculous about the way that we construct society, particularly in the West. I know that in in more eastern traditions they are much more open and honest about death. That we kind of avoid talking about it. You know, like I said, my dad, he was in denial that he was dying, even though he was clearly dying. He didn't want to talk about it, didn't want to talk about his funeral. He just wanted to pretend like everything was fine. And so obviously I learned that from him and I picked that up and I pretended everything was fine for
many months afterwards until I couldn't take any more cocaine. I I didn't have enough money left. and and the shit hit the fan for me. And I think what's really fascinating here is what you're doing is you're creating a community. And what I'm assuming is the case, and please correct me if this is wrong, is that the beauty of Too Young to Grieve is that it's a lot of people who are grieving who are supporting other people who are who are grieving themselves. And
Like you've just articulated really beautifully there within your friendship group, you were the first ones who go through it. So we can look around and we can blame, as a lot of kind of cultural messaging does right now, it blames men and boys for not being emotional. Obviously, we don't on this podcast for very clear and obvious reasons. But what what is what what you're saying here is, or what I'm hearing is you don't blame your friends for not being able to be there for you, because if it had happened
to one of them, you wouldn't have known how to be there for them because how could you? Because you don't have any experience, you don't have any tools to deal with it.
Luke Alfano (13:03)
Mm-hmm, 100%. And my friends were brilliant. Like, they were there, they were there to show up, you know, bring... I remember the first weeks, they were there bringing cards round, bringing food round, little bits and bobs. Do you want to go for a coffee? I'm free today. They were doing all those things. They were absolutely brilliant. And... But I've heard stories and people around me who've experienced different experiences, you know, friends disappearing, not showing up, not checking in. And, you know, like, people get back to their lives. This is why I always say the world keeps spinning, but ours feels like it's stopped.
And that's the hardest part because you think, I'm constantly thinking about my dad, especially first year, know, every minute, every second, I'm thinking about what has happened, but other people aren't. How can they not be thinking about Luke? Like Luke's experiencing grief, how's no one else thinking about how he's doing? Why is no one checking in? Everyone's got their own problems, their own things, their own families that they have to go back to. But at the same time, if we were taught a lot more about it...
lot more about grief. We talked openly about it and weren't so scared when the word grief or death comes up then people would know that it's not something that just finishes after the funeral and okay I should probably message you know next month or
Chris (14:11)
Hm. Hasn't really even started by then.
Luke Alfano (14:15)
exactly but that's the thing we kind of just are left to our own devices after that because no one understands how grief works because we're not taught about it so if we were people would be able to check in a lot more often on their friends who are grieving and
and be there for them even more than they might have thought that they should be. And that's exactly it. I don't blame anyone for that. Because like you said there, I wouldn't have known what on earth to say or do if I wasn't the first person because I was never taught it. All I saw in a film was someone crying, have the funeral, they're back working. So I wouldn't have known what to do. And that's why I'm so passionate about explaining it to people.
Chris (14:53)
Yeah.
And and I did that. I I I I was working at the BBC at the time. I was straight back to work as soon as I could because quote, it's what my dad would have wanted, you know. I got dragged off air. I was doing the sports news on Radio Manchester, the BBC. I'm a former semi professional cricketer and live on air, I forgot the name of the England cricket captain because I was completely fucked up. I'd been on like mad coke binges, and I just had to pretend to everybody that I was okay.
And and the and the problem with that is is that internally we're still in absolute turmoil. But then we also have this like added challenge for men that we have been trained for the entirety of our life up until that point to not show the world how we feel, to keep calm and carry on. And so actually we're pretty good at hiding it. And it and by the sounds of it, you were pretty good at hiding it for way longer than I was.
Luke Alfano (15:52)
Yeah, definitely. mean, I started doing things like, for example, content. You ask my friends if I'd be the one that makes content online and shows up online, they would say, not a chance before grief. Started doing that. And those type of things was just me wearing that grief mask to sort of think that I'm doing OK. I'm, you know, posting about things. I'm looking OK. I'm talking about fitness. I'm talking about nutrition. That was just me keeping busy and under the surface.
Chris (16:16)
Hmm.
Luke Alfano (16:17)
Luke was not. He was not OK. But.
He thought he had to show up, be the man, be strong, keep calm and carry on as you said and not show that this is really affecting him and he's not okay. He is struggling. He does need to talk to someone, but he thinks he can't because that's not what a man does. A man just continues and carries on and works it out, figures it out himself. But it is okay to talk, whether you're a man or a woman, it will help massively. And that's the thing that is just so...
important to get across, you can talk about things, it is okay to talk about things as a man.
Chris (16:55)
And and the and the thing with grief and it's the same with with trauma or or or pain that we've experienced is it doesn't just disappear from us, it stays with us. And and you talked before about these like s set peace moments, the birthdays, the weddings. I remember when my dad was dying, like on the day that he was dying, he said to me, you know, I'm really sad that I'm never gonna get to see you marry, right? And all I could do, because I was so much in denial, was to say, but you've seen me do so much.
Right. Ten years later, on my wedding day, guess what happened? I go and speak to my mum, and I just have a monumental breakdown because now I go, like, shit. This is what he was talking about. Like, he's he he on the just before he was dying, he finally had some like emotional lucidity and he started talking to me. And and I still didn't want to accept it. I I I I wanted to reject it because it would have been too much for me to handle at the time. And I don't
hate myself for that anymore. I used to. But the problem with it is, is, and it I think you've spoken about this is this idea that we we we we we get over grief. We don't ever get over it. I think the best way I've ever heard grief described is imagine so it plateaus for a long time and then imagine a reverse exponential curve, right? It never ever reaches the y axis.
Luke Alfano (18:21)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (18:22)
Sorry the the x axis, sorry.
It never ever reaches the reaches zero. It will just keep going with us forever and it will get less and less, but there'll always be spikes of it. Right.
Luke Alfano (18:31)
Hmm.
Chris (18:32)
And that that will happen all the time. So when is it for you? When do you still struggle? And when does he come back into your mind space? And and and how is that different now than it was then?
Luke Alfano (18:47)
Yeah, I think, like you said, it never fully goes away. But just to touch upon that, think yesterday I had a comment in one of the posts about, so you're saying that, you know, this is kind of keeping grief awareness, keeping grief alive. Do you not want it to like fully go, diminish? The person thinks that you can get rid of grief and they've experienced grief. And in my head, I'm thinking, why would I ever want it to fully go as sad as it can be? That is my dad still here, still around.
I don't want it to ever fully go because that means forgetting him. And I don't want to forget my dad. That's my best mate. always will be. So as hard as it is, it will always be there and it will come up in moments, whether it's a big moment like a wedding or a small moment in Tesco's when you see an &M's packet that he used to buy you. Could be the most random thing that it shows up as. So yeah, I think that was one thing that changed my perspective on grief was understanding that that is your person and it...
But it does, it does not get easier, but you get better at carrying it over time. And that's the thing, you know, at the start, like I said, it was all consuming, couldn't even navigate or get through a day without thinking about it. And it weighed me down. Now I can get through the day and I can see something. And I might smile when I see a picture or this morning I saw an email from my dad from five years ago, talking about FPL or something. Can you pick the teams for me? And I saw it and I smiled because I was like,
That's so brilliant. Like, where was that even hiding? So for me, like, grief shows up in so many weird but almost wonderful ways these days. Like, it can be the most small things like an email that you'll see or a picture that you'll find randomly or like I say, a random thing that reminds you of them, a song. But obviously the big milestones, always like, it'll be five years this September. So I know that next month is going to be a bit of all over the place leading up to that. And I know that now.
I think the first year was so hard because every single milestone was so heavy because it was the first time. But now I know, okay, this is going to come up. I'll give myself some grace. I'll take it easy around that time. And however it shows up on the day it shows up. So obviously the milestones are there. Those are when it shows up for me. But the most minor things, even the other day I was in the cinema and a dad and his son came and sat next to me and they were watching the film and like the dad was like, you want a pint son? And like just hearing that set me off. I was just thinking, like.
can't even watch a film with my dad. Like the most
Chris (21:16)
Yeah.
Luke Alfano (21:17)
small things, but they're so big to us. So that's why I'd say it's the most random things, but also the big milestones still hit us at times too.
Chris (21:27)
And I saw the other day you posted videos. looks like you're a decent footballer. I don't if you still are. and you you s
Luke Alfano (21:33)
I'm alright.
Chris (21:34)
you scored you you s you you scored a hat trick and then and the on the third goal you dived into the crowd basically and and celebrated with your dad. and tell me about that relationship with him, because it looks it looks at least from that very small snippet that he was a big fan of yours. was he also somebody who was capable of
of dealing with the emotional stuff or perhaps you hadn't got to that point in your relationship yet? Maybe maybe you hadn't quite reached the point in adulthood where you were able to have those the rich, deep conversations. Like what was your relationship with him?
Luke Alfano (22:09)
Yeah, I always say I was very blessed, still am very blessed to have a loving father in my life. I know not everyone has that opportunity and yeah, for me, I did have that, like any little thing my dad would always do for me. And I think at the time, like just jumping in on your point there, I don't think I was ready to sort of acknowledge that. I think I don't regret a lot of things in life, but not.
Being as emotional with my dad as I think he was with me was one thing that I wish I'd grown up to see and experience. I didn't really ask my dad many of those questions. I think when I was maturing a bit, I was at university, so I didn't maybe have as much time with him to ask things like about life, about his story, about his relationship with his dad, all of these things. I didn't really, I don't think I was mature enough to ask him that. Grief made me mature overnight and before that it was a thing where...
I wouldn't ever speak to my dad about those type of things. How's he doing? How are you coping dad? Like, sometimes you forget that it's your parents' first time living too. And you think they should know the answer to this. Why
Chris (23:16)
Ha ha ha.
Luke Alfano (23:16)
are they doing this? Like, they're just trying to figure it out as much as we are. But my dad, yeah, going back to that, would honestly, like always say, he was the best role model I could have asked for. I mean, the way that he showed his love for my mum, the way that he showed his love for myself, my two brothers.
Yeah, he would always do everything to try and make things work for us and give us the life that he wanted us to have. And yeah, I can't like say how much I appreciate him enough now. And I hope you can hear that because now as a man myself, I understand how difficult it is, how hard it is to come home after a long day at work and think, I've got to take Luke to football in the middle of Milton Keynes or something.
He was always there, he was sharp to every game. He would be there, whether it was a Tuesday night after a nine, 10 hour shift, he would be there. And that's, I can only say that's just a testament to how much he loved us. And yeah, like a legend, that's all I can say. Like those little things, I
Chris (24:23)
Mm-hmm.
Luke Alfano (24:24)
see and appreciate them now.
Chris (24:26)
And you you talked there about growing up quickly after he died. Tell me more about that. Like w what was your experience in in the immediate aftermath in terms of, you know, your dad sounds like very similar to my dad, you know, probably your biggest fan, your biggest critic, particularly when it comes to sport. you know, making always my old man would always tell me if I was fucking up, but he would always tell me when I was doing well as well. and
And we and and you know, that's that's a privilege to have somebody who is so present. you know, my my wife talks constantly about how privileged I was to have a dad who never missed me play a game of cricket. Like he was
Luke Alfano (25:07)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (25:08)
he it was it was actually ridiculous. At times sometimes I thought it would be nice I wonder what it would like would it would be like to play without him there. And you know, that's such a privilege to have. But that's that also keeps you young a little bit because you have this you have this father figure.
And then suddenly he's stripped away from you. So how did you start to create a sense of independence, maybe? I'm also thinking about this for myself on the spot. Like creating a sense of of independence where you you, you know, you you're you're living life and you can't just call your call your old man for a chinwag, you know? Like, what happened to you? How did you start to grow up from that point? What did you what did you potentially lose out on?
Luke Alfano (25:51)
I think that literally what you said there is the part that made me have to grow up as much as I have done in such a short space of time at a younger age. I think not being able to just call the person that you always would when something's wrong, you know, it could be the most minor thing with your car, it could be car insurance, road tax, it could be figuring out your career, what should I do at work? What do I do here with this scout or with this manager? How do I, like, what do I say to them? That would be on the phone, dad, what do I do?
When you don't have the option to do that anymore, you've got to figure it out yourself. I had to figure out what am I going to do in my life after university? What career do I want to do? What am I going to do football wise? Am I going to stay at this team? Am I going to move on? All of these things that I would have turned to him for, I can't do that anymore. So that means that naturally you have to do that yourself and grow up. Whereas obviously if you do have your parents present and both there, you can rely on them until they're not there.
And unfortunately for us, we had that at a younger age. And that means that that role model who's there that you look up to, you can't look up to them anymore. So you have to figure things out yourself. And I think that was for me, that was a pivotal moment in my life because I'm definitely a lot more mature for a 26 year old than I probably would have been if he was still here. And in a way, I always look at that and think, well, I wouldn't have done half the stuff that I do now. I wouldn't have any of the skills I have. I was a very introverted person.
When my dad was around, I was very shy. had sports psychology because I couldn't speak at football. I'd get anxious before games, wouldn't want to play. I couldn't speak in front of my class without shaking. I would pick all the modules without the speaking things. Now, that's all I do. I talk to people 24-7. I put myself on social media, put myself out there. And it's given me skills and qualities that I wouldn't have had he not passed away. So I think that in itself...
made me just grow up and have to just learn that life's too short to not do these things, to not try these things, to not figure things out because at the end of the day I didn't want to put, I think that was another thing when we talk about men we always often hear the word burden. I think at the start I didn't want to put that burden
Chris (28:05)
Mm.
Luke Alfano (28:06)
on anyone else. I didn't want to ring my brother, message my brothers, didn't want to ring mum and put extra things on her plate when she's got a lot to deal with. So I just did it all myself and as a
Chris (28:15)
Yep.
Luke Alfano (28:16)
result grew up a lot quicker.
But as I always say, it can be a lot easier and life can be a lot easier if you do talk to people and ask for help. And I didn't at the start. So it might have made me grow up quicker, but it also put a lot more on my plate than I probably needed.
Chris (28:33)
Mm-hmm. And and that not wanting to be a burden. I mean, that is a kind of cross the board working with men in a therapeutic sense. It's a huge thing to have to work with. You know, a lot of the men will still think that they're being a burden on me. I asked them, Do you do you feel like you're a burden on me? And they're like, Yeah. And I'm like, You're literally fucking paying me, man. Like, this is my job. And yet you still that's how deeply ingrained it is. I was the same with my mom. I I didn't want her to see that I was struggling.
Because I could see how much she was struggling, and I realize how misguided that is now, because we could have struggled together and that would have been completely valid. I'm curious to know, cause for me, I remember vividly the first day that I decided to do something differently. I remember sitting down with my mate Rob and I just spoke and spoke. I've told this story before. it was on the episode like the the episode six or five, where Jet interviews me. and I just had to sit.
And finally start talking. And I I can remember how much courage it took for me to do that. Like I was terrified because I'd never done anything like it before, but I was at a point where I didn't feel like I could do anything else. Do you remember the tipping point moment for you? Do you remember where you were or what you were doing when you were like, I have to start doing something differently because this isn't working?
Luke Alfano (29:52)
I think it was a sequence and a series of moments with one particular person, one of our best mates called Zach. Yeah, at the time he was the person that I sort of confided in.
I think we had a lot in common. We played football together, so we met through that. And yeah, I just remember being at football and talking to him about my situation and saying, look, I want to start social media. I want to do this because I'll be honest, I'm just struggling. I'm just literally just working a job just to make ends meet and get some money and play football.
But don't know where my life is going now. I've got a degree. I don't know what I'm doing with it. And I remember sitting in the change room, just talking to him and he probably doesn't even, he probably doesn't have a clue that I was going to even, that this even means something to me. I've never sort of told him about it, but it was just one conversation in the changing room at football. And he just told me to almost just give it a go and see what happens. And just that opportunity to share how I was feeling with him, what I wanted to try and say to him that, look, I am struggling a bit just with everything.
It was just in the changing room at football. And that's something that sticks with me to this day, because I think for me, you know, often we think it has to be in this really formal or clinical setting, but sometimes it could just be at football with your mate. It could be on a run with your mate, it could be down the pub, and a conversation can open up and make someone actually feel really seen and heard, because it's in a comfortable environment for them. And yeah, that was that moment for me, sat in the football changing room next to my mate, Zach. So yeah, appreciate him.
hopefully you can hear this and hopefully he listens and
Chris (31:31)
Well
Luke Alfano (31:32)
we'll drop a message.
Chris (31:35)
Well, I think I th I th I think you should message him and tell him because we need we need
Luke Alfano (31:39)
Hahaha
Chris (31:40)
Robs and Zach's in this world to look us in the eye and say, Hey man,
Luke Alfano (31:43)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (31:44)
like this isn't this isn't this isn't okay. You know, do do something, change, do do do the thing that feels right for you and and to have mates that encourage us because a lot of
Luke Alfano (31:54)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (31:55)
traditional male spaces we can kind of be discouraging of each other and and it it it's really harmful that.
in in the long run. And I I work with a lot of clients that really struggle because they haven't been encouraged by their friends and they really struggle with that their low self esteem. So big up Zach for that. yeah. And so I so I hope that you do tell him. I mean, one of the things that you've talked about previously, and I'm keen to hear this, is before all of this happened, you were very focused on like fitness and on your appearance. That's right, I think.
Luke Alfano (32:29)
Yeah, I did PT in and
Chris (32:30)
Yeah.
Luke Alfano (32:31)
online fitness and nutrition.
Chris (32:33)
Okay. So post grief or mid grief, you've said that it's changed the way you thought about yourself in terms of your health and maybe also about ambition and success. Like what what what changed in that regard for you?
Luke Alfano (32:49)
yeah, in terms of ambition and success and things like that, the definition of that completely changed for me. I think before grief, I can't even remember, like was always searching up, what can I do with a psychology degree that earns the most money? Is it HR? Is it marketing? What is it? Like, what can I make the most money with with this degree now? Then grief comes along and that just completely changed. I remember I used to buy all the designer clothes. I'd make, I want to look good. I want to...
If I'm wearing something like that, then I mean something, that's success. If I wear a designer, I'm a successful person. like I say, my ambition was to just get to the top, make as much money as I can, and that means I'm successful. After experiencing grief, I said it the other day, pride becomes irrelevant after loss. For me, that was the pivotal moment for me to know, I'm ambitious to make as much impact as I can in my life.
And if I can do that, then I will be successful. Because when you impact a person's life, that is success to me. Like to see someone turn up to a meet up and be able to share their story or talk about grief or just be around someone and listen to that. That's impact. To be able to come on here and talk to you and hopefully even one person if they hear this and then decide to open up to their mate, their Zach, their Rob. That's impact. That's success.
And I think that's what changed for me. It was just a completely different definition of those two things. And I am ambitious and I think that's the grief that makes me want to be ambitious in a different type of way. And I think that's what's changed for me. Like I'm still very ambitious and driven, but it's not to just make money, it's to make an impact. It's to be there for the people that I love and be present. And I think that...
you can do that by being ambitious and driven and grief can give you that as well. know, grief can be as hard as it is, it can be a superpower. There's things that I've done, even remember doing a high rocks with my mate Sean and on the rowing machine, you know, that was grief that got me through that rowing machine. I like, I said this the other day, turned into a demon and was able to push through it, push through it, because I saw my dad in the hospital bed. And when I have periods where I struggle, that grief drives me on. And I think
That's hard, it's hard and especially if you're first going through it, hard to hear but it can give you a different type of ambition and drive that you wouldn't have had before that as well.
Chris (35:22)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It gave me an ambition and drive to want to change the world around me for men. And I didn't know that that was something that I cared about because I didn't until it so you never know what's gonna happen, but it inevitably changes us. and I would say the younger you are, the more it's gonna change you. And and I think that is an unfortunate reality. that you are living proof of. And actually what you've done, and this is a you know
The audience knows I like a a cheesy segue. So this is a nice way to pivot to talking about what you have done, what you have achieved, which is this incredible community you've created. So it's called Too Young to Grieve. You've mentioned it a couple of times. F before you tell us about exactly what it is that Too Young to Grieve does and is and wants to do, how did it start? What was the first thought you had? Because I've had amazing people on here like Ben West, and we've had
Luke Ambler and these incredible men who've created incredible things. And so much of what we are creating in the space comes from shitty lived experiences. Let's be
Luke Alfano (36:27)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (36:28)
honest. And it's interesting that I laughed when I said that because it is absurd that that's the reality. And it's just unfortunate. So there must have been a moment where you thought, I have now an experience, and I can maybe help other people with their experience and I can create something.
So what what was that moment or what were those moments and and where did the idea come from?
Luke Alfano (36:51)
Yeah, first and foremost, big up to Luke and Ben, two great people doing great things as well. So, yeah, glad you mentioned them both. But yeah, I think for me, the pivotal moment was, like I say, losing Nonna, I'm glad you knew what that was from your Italian friend, made me think about Dad. And yeah, it was that moment that I thought, okay, like you mentioned, I did fitness, nutrition, PT in.
I loved it. I love fitness. I think it's so good. That's why a lot of our meetups centre our movement. Because again, I think that can help with the grief as well. But yeah, I've always been into that side of things. But I've always had a passion for the mind. did psychology at university. I've always really loved talking about mental health. I often would post about my own grief journey on my social media, even though it was a fitness and nutrition page. And I think when I got to that point of losing honour, it made me realise I really do.
want to talk more about grief and my journey to help other people experiencing grief and in particular help other men experiencing grief know that it's okay to talk about your grief and if you are struggling it's okay to talk to a mate, it's okay to talk to professional, it's okay to turn up to a community group and just talk about it if you want to. So I started the Too Young to Grieve podcast, that's how it all began. The reason I started a podcast was probably the same as when I started social media.
didn't want everyone to see me talking about things. So I started my social media on TikTok because none of my friends followed me and then ended up posting on Instagram. Same thing with the Too Young To Grieve podcast. I didn't want to talk about grief all day and every day on my own personal page. So I started the Too Young To Grieve podcast as almost an outlet to just talk about grief for people who wanted to listen along and think, you know, actually this person is making me feel quite seen, heard and understood. Because I never thought that...
I had that opportunity when I was listening to a podcast, was grief, but not necessarily for what we're talking about here, where it's a young adult who's navigating their life and a lot of big life tests and milestones, whilst also navigating grief. So I wanted a place to talk about that and that's what the podcast was. So it started with that and then the page came after that because I needed a place to put the podcast.
And then I started talking more about grief because people started to hear it and actually message and say, you know what, this has really helped me. And that was the moment when I got that first message saying, I listened to your podcast and it really helped me. And that was actually from another man as well. It made me realise I need to just
Chris (39:26)
Yeah.
Luke Alfano (39:27)
really go and talk about this more because if someone else is already experiencing the feeling of being seen.
then I have to talk more about this. And it was like, I was called to just go all in on that. And I stopped, I don't really talk too much about fitness and nutrition anymore because I'm so passionate about the mental health side and the grief side and men's mental health now. And I still go to the gym, I still eat well, but that is where I wanna talk about what I wanna talk about. And they link anyway, they both link together.
Chris (40:04)
So from there, you've now got a community of how many people?
Luke Alfano (40:09)
So on all socials there's probably around over 100,000 people in the community and then in person, yeah, it ranges, but yeah, we have around 100,000 online and then yeah, the in-person meetups, yeah, we get around 20 at different, and we've got different locations as well.
Chris (40:30)
Yeah. What are they like, those meetups, the in-person meetups? What is it like for you, first of all? What was that first one like that you did? And what is it like now to to go and to see that, you know, and you said it there, that message that you got from the guy saying this podcast has really helped. And to me, I've said this so many times, that is success. You know, the one person who messages
Luke Alfano (40:52)
Thanks
Chris (40:52)
this podcast every month to say,
Thank you for for talking compassionately about men. I didn't know how to do that before, but now I do. Like that's what we do this for, right? It's not saving the world, it's changing it one person at a time. So
Luke Alfano (41:05)
Hmm.
Chris (41:05)
that was a that was a diversion from the question, which is what was it like for you to have those first sessions and actually be face to face with other people that have experienced what you've experienced?
Luke Alfano (41:16)
yeah, and it's slight diversion, but I still think it's so important what you said. think the reason we do what we do is if it finds one person, then that is absolutely amazing. Because yeah, that's why we do it for people to feel seen, to feel heard. And I think sometimes in this world, we can get caught up with metrics and numbers and the idea of success and, my podcast only has this amount of people listening. That's why I don't, when you ask me how many people we have, I don't know off the top of my head.
because all I know is that if one person comes to the meetup, absolutely brilliant. And I'm glad you asked about the meetups because I think as we normally do and as you would expect, I think people might be very apprehensive to turn up and think that it's going to be very sad, very heavy and quite often the reaction is so...
amazing to see because someone who was very nervous to come and understandably it's a very scary thing. I wouldn't even go to rung clubs myself, let alone a grief rung club, so I can understand why it can be very intimidating and people can be apprehensive to come. But when people do, they see how it's just literally just a casual, for example, run and then having a coffee and being able to talk about things if you want to. And I think that's the power. It's nothing too structured or formal or clinical at all.
It's just meeting up with people who most often share a lot of similar perspectives to yourself. You've got the background that grief is there, you know that's there. If you want to talk about it, you can, but you don't have to. There's absolutely no pressure. And more often than not, you know, it will only be a fraction of the conversation and you'll be talking about so many different things. But because you've got that shared perspective from grief, you could be talking about work and someone might say, yeah, I actually swap jobs, you know, after this person passed because
I realised that I wasn't enjoying my job. And I've heard that so many times. And I think that's the thing, the power of being able to just meet people in a similar situation is it can be so healing to hear that someone else has also experienced a similar thing with their work, with their relationship, with their friendship, with their support network. And that's what the meetups are about, just being able to talk about those things. So
Chris (43:26)
Mm.
Luke Alfano (43:27)
yeah, they're really, really casual.
But yeah, first one, I was absolutely so nervous myself to lead it. And yeah, it was just great to, from that point to see how far it's come and hopefully continues to find people who need it.
Chris (43:42)
And I like this, Lou, because I I I I sense the humility in you in this, is that, you know, you you see there's some guys in this space who maybe they run men's groups and they claim that they're men's mental health experts or whatnot. And, you know, you're positioning yourself. This is not clinical. This is not coming from a place of any sort of expertise. This is lived experience group, and we are all here in the shit together. And I'm curious.
How do you position yourself? Because you are the, you know, grand leader of of this organization, but you're not saying that you are in any way an expert. You are just somebody who had an idea and went through with it. So, like how how do you position yourself in those circles? Because it's it's it's been it's it's been it's always been interesting to me to go into men's groups or circles and not be the facilitator.
And actually allow myself to sit back and be held. So like, do you feel comfortable with that or do you still feel like, well, I actually I have to run this. This is my space, so I'm responsible for it.
Luke Alfano (44:48)
Yeah, I think obviously as the person who said it all up, I do feel like it's funny, like even when we do like the runs, I feel like I'm a school teacher and when we're at the lights, like I make sure that it's green before we go. Whereas if I'm on a run myself, I'm running across if there's no cars. But even if there's no cars, I'm like, now let's wait till that. Like, I do feel like I hold a responsibility to make sure that everyone's like, okay, but physically like cars and things, but also.
Like if anyone is struggling a bit more, I will also always feel like I should be the one that should step in and sign posts or let them know that there is further support there. But I never see myself as, as I can't remember what you said off the top of my head just then, but like the grand leader. I never see myself as the one who's created all this and that. Like people sometimes when we take a picture, someone's like, you get in the middle, get in the middle. I'm like.
It's not about that at all. It's about everyone here. The community is here for everyone. It's not my thing. It's not my group. It's just a community for young adults navigating loss. And we're all in this together. As you said, it's a shitty situation. We're all in it together. And we're just here to try and just talk about things and hopefully help one another. I also feel like as I'm sort of five years into my journey and there's someone that might come a week into it or a month into it.
I'm, like I say, not a therapist, but I can provide my own lived experience of my journey of five years compared to their journey of a week and just say, look, this is how it helped. This is what helped me. This is what I experienced at the start, you know. And I think that's all it is. Like you say, not positioning ourselves as therapists, as a support group at all, just a community, some people who get together who have a shared experience. And I think that therapists, people like yourself, I think professional support is amazing.
One of the best things I ever did to change my life, going to therapy. So I always recommend people when you're ready, give it a go. But this is just like a bit where, know, if you, for example, there's a long waiting list and you can't get it, come down to a run, have a chat, and hopefully that helps in the slightest way, even if it's a tiny little bit that you take from it.
Chris (46:53)
Yeah.
It can it can be therapeutic without being therapy. and that's something important, you know, and and being taking care of yourself and being in in group like that is therapeutic. And of course, you know, I do want to ask you about your therapy experience and I do want to ask maybe one day you might consider training to be a therapist because it sounds like you'd be a great grief counselor. and I because I'm curious about I'm curious about where you might go with all of this. because
Luke Alfano (47:19)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (47:20)
it's it's it's a it's it's an issue that's never gonna go away.
So yeah, what what what what what it what what what I I've lost my train of thought now. I've got so many things I want to ask you. let's let's let's let's talk about the therapy then because one of the things with grief, actually really good grief counselors, and it's quite frustrating for people who go through it, a really good grief counselor will tell you you need to be at least six months after the death of the person to go into grief counselling. So like when did you finally decide to bite the bullet?
And go into therapy.
Luke Alfano (47:55)
Four years in. So yeah,
Chris (47:58)
Okay, so you waited a fair while.
Luke Alfano (48:00)
I waited a little bit longer than six months. But yeah, I think as I mentioned earlier, I always thought, you know, I've done psychology at uni. I know about the mind. I know why I'm feeling this. I know I'm feeling that. I don't need to speak to someone else about it. I've got the knowledge. That is not the case. You know, it's a different type of thing, therapy, and it can really help you to navigate things that you don't know why they're
you know, why you potentially aren't settled in your career, why you felt this type of way when it came to getting married, why you're not putting yourself out there to date because you're scared. Like all of these little things or why you feel so anxious with certain decisions, that's why I started therapy because I felt at a time in my life where I was really anxious, didn't know what the next move was, didn't know what I was doing, whether I was making the right decisions and that might have been a thing that I would have talked to my dad about.
I would have just said like rang him up and said I'm not really sure this is the right thing for me but because I didn't have that I thought well let's do therapy let's address this elephant in the room should
Chris (49:03)
Mm.
Luke Alfano (49:03)
we say and yeah for me my experience of therapy was incredible I had two stints I had one therapist online one in person both were absolutely brilliant me personally I absolutely loved it in person I thought there was a different type of connection being able to do that but
being online was as good, I thought it was great. yeah, it changed my life for sure.
Chris (49:29)
Did it surprise you?
Luke Alfano (49:31)
Yeah, definitely. I think the first session I had, was sort of apprehensive. was like, what's this going to be like? Am I actually going to get anything from this? Did a consultation. Absolutely loved it. Signed up straight away for, I think it was eight sessions. Did more than the eight, but yeah, that first session really surprised me. Just things that, you you think, what am going to say? You get into that room or that call and...
you'll just start talking. might ask one question and then you're off and you've got so many things that are coming up and coming out. And I think that's the power of it. Things where you might not be able to get that experience from a support group or a community. That's what a therapist can do for you and can help you understand more.
Chris (50:20)
Sure, it's it's it's the expertise of being able to unlock something. And like I say to my clients, you know, therapists need therapists. You know, I I can't do the work of therapy on my own. You know, there's there's still I'm not in therapy right now, but I go in and every every now and then. And with my current therapist, and with all of them I've had, there are moments when they say something and I'm just like, fuck you, man. Like, that's so obvious. It's so obvious now that you've said it.
Luke Alfano (50:47)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (50:47)
And I'm a fucking therapist. How could I not see that? And they're well, of course you couldn't, because we needed to have this ping pong. And you
Luke Alfano (50:53)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (50:54)
know, I usually go into a first to a sort of therapy that I'm not, like somebody who does modalities that I don't do. And I don't know. I of course I'm evangelical about therapy. So that's where I'm interested. Like, is is going into a professional sense within mental health something that you have considered? Because more and more now, lived experience.
Is really valuable within the therapy space. we've got an episode coming up soon with David Levy, who is an ADHD specialist as a therapist, and he was a therapist before he got his ADHD diagnosis, and then he's pivoted and he's being very honest with people about his ADHD, and that's really useful. So I
Luke Alfano (51:38)
Mmm.
Chris (51:38)
don't know. Of course, one of one of our goals with men's therapy will be to try to get more men to train as therapists. So is it something you might consider in the future?
Luke Alfano (51:47)
It's just you trying to get me into men's therapy, huh?
Chris (51:50)
Sure. Absolutely. It's it's one of it's one
Luke Alfano (51:51)
No comment.
Chris (51:54)
of the it's one of the dreams of men's therapy hobbies to try to get more men to train his therapists 'cause there aren't enough of us right now, you know? So like I don't know, is 'cause you talked about not not being a professional, not being a clinical,
Luke Alfano (52:05)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (52:06)
and just maybe that might be something you'd be interested in.
Luke Alfano (52:10)
Yeah, I definitely have thought about it many times. My mum's always going on at me, she says, you'd be a great therapist. You're trained to be a therapist. You'd definitely be good at it. I like listening to people. I think that's one thing that obviously helps in therapy. I've got a background in psychology. So yeah, I think everything is there. all
Chris (52:28)
Exactly, yeah.
Luke Alfano (52:29)
waiting for me to just go for it. And I think I definitely would be open to doing it. I think it's like...
like we've discussed, it's a big part of the work that I want to do is support people through tough times. And at the moment it might be the community, but in next year, few years, 10 years, it might be through therapy. And I think that's another thing with grief is I think I live my life now just taking it one day at a time and seeing what the next day holds. So, yeah, I'm not sure.
answer to your question I would definitely be open to it but not sure when.
Chris (53:11)
Great. if there's anything I learned from the death of my dad. And I was laughing with a client this morning, actually, about being thirty-nine and realizing the the older that I get, the more I listen to my mum and the more I listen to her advice. so sounds like your mum's got some good advice for you there, Luke. So
Luke Alfano (53:32)
Yeah
Chris (53:34)
if you if if if if you're listening, Luke's mum, please keep telling him because we we need more. And people like people like you, Luke, would make a great therapist, she's right.
Luke Alfano (53:41)
Thank
Chris (53:41)
so two more questions.
Luke Alfano (53:42)
you.
Chris (53:43)
what is what what is the what is the goal now for for the for the for the community, for the movement? Like
Luke Alfano (53:49)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (53:50)
what what do you hope to achieve from it? I know you've already achieved more than you ever could have imagined. So what are your short to medium term goals?
Luke Alfano (53:57)
Yeah, so I think the main two things I'd say is the community side. Want to keep growing the communities. Obviously, I lead the group in London and we have some amazing, fantastic people who lead groups in all over the country, in Australia, America. And I would love to keep doing that. Just keep having different groups all over the place would be a massive goal because grief happens everywhere and
If it's just literally a meetup that helps someone at a certain tough point in their journey, then that would be absolutely amazing. So I think the more groups we have, absolutely brilliant. So that would definitely be a big goal is to keep growing those, keep getting them all over the place. To keep growing like grief awareness, I think is a massive thing. I think people like yourself and just having conversations and talking about things is an absolutely massive part. That's why I started the podcast to talk more about grief.
So I'm going to keep, and I'm sure you will as well, keep talking about it, keep getting the messages out there, trying to get it on as many things. If people get sick of the story, it doesn't bother me because like we say, it could find someone who needed it that day. So keeping the messages going. And then I would absolutely love to play a part in some actual change in the way that grief is viewed in.
whether it's government, whether it's workplaces, whether it's university schools, that side of things is a massive, massive goal to use the community that we have, the data, shall we say, or the survey, the things that we're getting told and not just sitting on those and hearing them, actually putting them forward to places that do need to hear it and can make a massive impact because, yeah, I don't think there is enough support or awareness around grief. And if we can...
somehow impact that and make it a big thing to actually be part of what we're talking about, whether it's in school curriculums, whether it's in workplace policies, whether it's in the government. If we can make change through that, I know it's very hard, I know people have been trying to it for years, but we can't stop because otherwise it will never happen. So that's a big part of what we want to do is use what we have to then make an impact on a global and a
Chris (56:15)
Mm.
Luke Alfano (56:16)
policy perspective.
Chris (56:18)
Well, good on you. And, you know, for for keep talking about it. I mean, people have tried to stop me from talking and I just won't, because it's so important
Luke Alfano (56:24)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (56:25)
what I think that you are doing or what we're doing here. and actually you've kind of semi answered our final question, which we ask everyone who comes on, which is I'm gonna give you unlimited funds. You can do whatever you want with it. except I have to put this caveat in that you can't just say more of your own organization because that's cheating.
So I'm gonna give you unlimited funds and you're gonna do one big thing with it that's gonna have the biggest impact. So you've mentioned potentially stuff in schools or more wider in the community. Like like what is it you would do with that money and what impact would would it have?
Luke Alfano (57:02)
What I do with that money is...
put it into things like therapy, put it into things like rehab, put it into places that can support the people going through the hardest things. We talk about male suicide rates being so high, suicide rates in general being so high, and I think if I had all the money in the world, I would make sure that the support is there earlier rather than later. I think...
a lot of the time people are looking to change, people are looking for help. But from first-hand perspective, sometimes you reach out, you look for help, you try and help the people around you and you can't get that support because it's too hard. They're overrun, they're overloaded with things. So I think being able to put the money into places who can support these people who are struggling would be my biggest thing. And whether that is, like I say, being able to make therapy free for everyone and not have to wait.
months or years for it or whether it's making rehab places less expensive than they are or just having helplines constantly there for people and support there for people and they don't have to wait for it or figure it out themselves because often people do want help but they don't get the support that they they need for that so that's what I would do with it.
Chris (58:21)
So frontline services to help people going through the shit. I like that, obviously.
Luke Alfano (58:26)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (58:26)
I'm a big fan of that. so where can people find you? Where can people find Too Young to Grieve? where where can you signpost people to now to check you out?
Luke Alfano (58:37)
Yeah, so my personal page is at LukeAlfano11 on pretty much everything and Too Young To Grieve is at Too Young To Grieve on pretty much everything from Insta, TikTok, YouTube, Spotify, you name it, we're there.
Chris (58:50)
Wonderful. All right. Thank you, Luke. And thank you for coming on, giving us your valuable time and for doing the work that you do. I say this to every guest, but it it's always such a pleasure to speak to people who are doing such fabulous work. And there's so many people out there doing the work. You know, I only came across you during the summer when I've been scrolling on Instagram one day and there you are doing this amazing work because there's more and more people doing it. So I'm happy to help you spread the message. and it's been a pleasure to have you on.
Luke Alfano (59:19)
Thank you so much, appreciate everything that you do as well. yeah, hopefully this helps and makes people feel less alone.
